Unless something has changed since I last checked, foxhunting/training is open season in virginia...how could they be ticketed?

That was my whole point from the early days of the study. Knowing that more attention was going to be put on the use of hounds in Virginia, (especially deer hounds) It was imperative that a legal training season be established in the future. Even though it will always be a hard case to prosecute in court. Just by being issued a citation is enough inconvenience or harassemnet to deter the practice by many houndsmen. If a legal training season is not esblished for deerhounds, there will continue to be those who train in the name of fox hounds that will continue to bring a negative stigma to that discipline. For the sanctity of fox hound training, a REASONABLE window must be provided for the deer hound owners to safeguard fox hounds from unwarranted public criticism. In doing this, one of the top complaints (disrupting the solitude of still hunters) will be resolved and one large group of opponents against hound hunting will be silenced for the most part. It is imperative that everyone possible attend the VDGIF board meeting on Oct. 23 to show support in this proposal. We must make sure that a REASONABLE period of training is provided to the deer hound owners. In my opinion, the definition of REASONABLE will provide time periods during October that deer hounds can be legally trained. Even if it is limited to nights and on Sundays. That would be more then we legally have now and would go a long way in achieving the goal. This is the opportunity for 57,000 deer hunters to step up and show the VDGIF that this is the right thing to do for all interest. Don't fall for the argument that we will be glad with getting anything for now, with hopes of expanding it at a later date. The tide for this is as strong as we will ever get it. Too let this get by, will be passing up our best chance ever. So far, 6 of 9 states that have deer hound hunting, have an established training season for deer hounds (All 6 run consecutively w/ the bow season) . Virginia needs to be #7. That will leave Georgia (self explanatory)and South Carolina (4 month season starts on Aug 15)to stand alone. Remember, Virginia is by far the largest state for deer hound hunting. It is due time for us to take the lead in establishing ground rules that will help resolve identified conflicts and safeguard our sport into the future.

QUOTE{Currently there is no legal chase season for deer outside of the general firearms season. Many deer hound hunters are using the fox chase season as the loophole in the law to run their deer hounds illegally.}

THEY ARE GONNA RIGHT TICKETS LEFT AND RIGHT AND HAND THEM OUT LIKE CANDY.THEY ARE HELL BENT ON CLOSSING THE LOOPHOLE,IF YOUR NOT TRULEY RUNNING FOX I WOULD SUGEST YOU STAY IN THE PENS OR NOT RUN IN THE OPEN UNTIL THE SEASON OPENS.THEY ARE JUST LOOKING FOR AN EXCUSE TO WRIGHT A TICKET

Jim I think you and the SAC committee has done enough damange by placing the Trespass Law aka RTR back in the hands of the General Assembly to modify. This year they may rule in favor of revoking that law that so many hound hunters counted on when their hounds crossed boundarys. Stop being a poster boy for DGIF and work with the Vahda to repeal the damage that is done.

When I first read this post, I gave a quick reply to address what I think is a very serious problem for foxhunters.

But even after that post of mine, I worried about what this game warden said. I wondered whether I was overly concerned or whether this guy is a real problem.

He is a real problem.

Lets analyze the post.

He says that hunters who use the roads for hunting will be ticketed under the following law:

"One of the biggest complaints we get every year in the Northern Neck is road hunting, blocking the road or using the road as a form of trespass. The Code of Virginia clearly states that no person shall stop a vehicle in such manner as to impede or render dangerous the use of the highway by others, except in the case of an emergency, an accident, or a mechanical breakdown. A highway is defined as the entire width between the boundary lines of every way or place open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel in the Commonwealth. We will enhance our effort to enforce this existing law. The highways of Virginia are designed for vehicular traffic and not for the purpose of hunting. As State sworn law enforcement officers we have an obligation to protect the safety of the general public. The use of the highways for the purpose of hunting when it creates a public safety hazard is a violation of the Code of Virginia."

Strict and to the letter enforcement, and he says that is what he is going to do, means that parking on the right of way well off the pavement is a violation of the law because the law defines the right of traffic passage to be the entire right of way from boundary to boundary.

You you can't even pull well off the pavement on a grassy area and not be in violation.

Further, he makes no distinction between a hunter who is trying to locate the position of his hounds, figure out which way they are going, or trying to catch them to go home or to keep them from getting hit by a car.

When you get down to his description of what you need to carry on your person to hunt on land and what constitutes a violation of hunting and trespass laws, you will see that if in the above situation you decide that you should go down the road a half mile and pull into a farm lane so as to be off the road and its "boundaries", you are in violation of the trespass law because you don't have that landowner's permit in your pocket and you have already admitted that your hounds are a half mile back up the road. Remember, he says that you must know the hounds are on that piece of property to have the RTR.

So in the above situation, you can have all of your guns stored away in the truck, trying to catch hounds and be in violation of the law either way you go.

This from a guy that we thought we were helping by trying to get the VDGIF board to increase the number of game wardens.

You also have to realize that this law against stopping in the road does not distinguish between I-95 and the small roads that run through the farm country in counties like Appomattox, Faquier, Greeneville County, etc., where everyone knows everyone and knows to watch for you and your hounds.

He ends it by saying VDGIF is all for supporting hound hunting in VA.

Every good and decent officer of the peace knows the difference between the letter of the law and the intent of the law.

Apparently this guy is not one of them. If he does and if I have misinterpreted his statement, he should post an explanation of what he expects out of a hunter who is trying to follow his hounds, for whatever reason he may be following them.

Hunting with hounds in VA is over unless you get a red coat and ride a horse with one of those clubs that swears that they control their hounds.

Except when they jump a deer and leave the country where they have trails. Or when they jump a coyote or a bear that sets out for home. Or except when.......

The season is ruined for me just thinking about this guy.

CSSJR

Mr. Hackett there is no rule in NC that says you cannot train deer hounds year round even during bow season if you like. Eastern NC

I just forwarded this post to Bob Duncan in hopes of determining whether this is an IMPOSTER or if he is in fact a VDGIF CPO!!
If he works for VDGIF...then he may as well work for HSUS an PETA too! He's definitely not FOR hound hunting as he has stated!! Not based on his comments in the post!!
It appears that VDGIF has some "moles" from the above organizations working as employees!! It may be closer to the truth than I realize!!
Gonna be a tough year for deer hunting with hounds, apparently!

ALLAN BISHOP
(JABBER JAW)

Allan:

Not just deer hunters.

Bear hunters and foxhunters that are not three strides behind their hounds, legs bleeding from briers, tongue hanging out as far as your hounds....you are not following and in control of your hounds.

Never mind they just crossed the river and it is 3 miles to the next bridge.

Of course by the time you go the 3 miles down river and then three miles back to get to the other side, you have no idea where the hounds got to, so now you have that "don't park on the road and don't dare go on anyone's property to get off the road unless you have a written permit or can prove that you KNOW exactly where they are.

He has said that you can't get by with just thinking they might be there.

The letter of the law!

They say if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

This one walks like a chicken and...

CSSJR

John Morris - N.C. has an open 365 24/7 training season for deer hounds. This is according to Game Warden Capt. Mitch Kuykedall of the N.C. Dept.of Natural Resources.

Derick- I realize I won't change your mind but, it is important for everyone else to know the facts of the SAC proposal instead of the purposeful misleading information that you keep spewing.
What we approved was the best option we had on the table for discussion. I would had rathered not discussed the subject at all. I made it clear many times that I supported RTR and was not willing to surrender it at all. But, I cannot control the room discussion. Once it comes to the floor for discussion, it is discussed. Whether, I agree or not. Had the present proposal not been approved (Which several landowners didn't want it too) the next discussion to come to the floor was totally resending RTR. (This is what some of the landowners wanted) That is a discussion I did not want to entertain. You need to stop trying to turn me into a bad guy and face the facts. Giving the options I had, the direction I choose was in the best interest of us hound owners. If you disagree with our proposal, please, by all means, fight against it and defeat it. I won't complain a bit. I don't want it changed either. Had the SAC approved total elimination of RTR. Your battle would have been a lot tougher.

Mr. Hackett... the way I read it both you and John are saying the same thing just phrased a little different.

Hey guys this was from a real game warden on the northern neck! His name is Bruce Wilds he is a big duck hunter and bow hunter... I think he also runs his own guide service?

YOU KNOW THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS WITH WHAT THIS GUY SAYS,FIRST HIS TAKE ON THE RIGHT TO RETRIEVE.THE LAW DOES NOT STATE I MUST KNOW THE DOGS ARE THERE,READ THE LAW IN THE BOOK.HE IS STATING HIS OPINION OF THE LAW

seems to me some of what was written is word for word from rick's site,this warden seems to have inserted himself personaly in this.i know there are some real good decent cpo's in this state that work hard and do whats right,that being said,there are bad apples out there that better watch out and the ones doing right will have nothing to worry about.this guy can say what he wants but he doesnt speak for all cpo's.like claude said there is the "letter of the law" and then theres "intent of the law" right is right and wrong is wrong.

Doesn't matter now Jim as pandora's box has been open. Thanks pal for your vote to amend the RTR law.

THE INTERESTING PART OF ALL THIS TO ME IS WHY THIS PARTICULAR CPO SUPERVISOR TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF TO ANNOUNCE THIS IN THE PRESS. IT IS ALMOST LIKE WHEN OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ANNOUNCE DRIVER CHECKPOINTS DURING NEW YEARS EVE FOR POTENTIAL DRUNK DRIVERS. HOWEVER, I DONT RECALL VDGIF EVER DOING IT ON ANY ISSUE.

I WILL SAY THAT I HAVE HUNTED OPENING DAY AND BOTH SATURDAYS OF OUR EARLY SEASON HERE IN CHESAPEAKE. ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS. WE HAVE PULLED OFF THE ROAD TO TRACK/CATCH DOGS,AND EXERCISED RTR AS NEEDED. THE CPO CAME TO THE GATE OF ONE OF OUR LEASES SAT AFTERNOON AND CONDUCTED ROUTINE LICENSE CHECKS ON SEVERAL HUNTERS GATHERED THERE. HAD A VERY CONGENIAL CONVERSATION WITH OUR PRESIDENT.

I CANT PREDICT THE FUTURE, BUT SUFFICE TO SAY WE WILL BE CLOSELY SCRUTINIZED THIS SEASON, AND HEREAFTER.
EVERYBODY STAY SAFE.
JMMJR,VHDA

Virginia Dept. Question
Posted on Monday 29 August @ 22:30:27
The Virginia Dept of Game and Inland Fisheries has received a grant to produce media public service announcements targeting wildlife crime. If any agency has produced such media announcements whether video or audio, we would like to obtain a copy. Please send to:

Virginia Dept. of Game and Inland Fisheries
P.O. Box 11104
Richmond, VA 23230-1104
Attention: Mel White

Thank you.
Rich Goszka / President of the Virginia Game Warden Association
rgoszka@dgif.state.va.us

I GUESS DERICK ANSWERED THAT QUESTION.
JMMJR,VHDA

I hunt in the Nothern Neck, and I can tell you this guy is for real. The game warden that services our area came by and talked to our master of hounds last week and stated that he had been ordered to stiffen the laws and enforce them the way they are written. Now a lot of the stuff this guy wrote he cant control. In on of the counties all you have to do is be on the other side of the ditch line an you are fine. In the other you have to be further back. also in both counties as long as you have all 4 wheels off the pavement no ticket should be written.
Sounds like this guys wants to spend a lot of time in court on the losing end. I try to hunt as legal and ethical as possible. I dont trespass I follow the law when I retieve my hounds. As long sa I continue to do as I have done for most of my life I should be fine. If I get written a ticket, if I am wrong I will pay it. If not I will take it to court and see what a judge thinks of it.
Ethier way I will be turning out my hounds on the first day of gun season and hope to hear a grand chase. If the game wardens in the area want to come by and listen they are welcome also.

Just my 2 cents worth
Claude
IKS

I HAVE THE SAME FEELING CLAUDE,ALOT OF TICKETS THAT THE JUDGE'S WONT UPHOLD,OR BE DISMISSED.

I went back and re-read the law on retrieval of hounds this is it word for word
quote{When the chase begins on other lands, fox hunters and coon hunters may follow their dogs on prohibited lands, and hunters of all other game, when the chase begins on other lands, may go upon prohibited lands to retrieve their dogs, but may not carry firearms or archery tackle on their persons or hunt any game while thereon. The use of vehicles to retrieve dogs on prohibited lands shall be allowed only with the permission of the landowner or his agent. Any person who goes on prohibited lands to retrieve his dogs must identify himself when requested by the landowner or his agent.}

this warden says its this
quote:Hunters must know they are there by hearing, seeing or pin pointing them with modern radio tracking equipment. Upon this knowledge they should then immediately retrieve them and leave the property. The right-to-retrieve law is not an invitation to continue the chase.

the law has not been changed as of yet and what is proposed says nothing of the such,the law does not state any of that.while he is right it is not an inventation to continue the chase.

I can assure you that Rich is 100% for real, having talked with him on a few occasions over the last few years. He seems to be straight up and easy enough to get along with, well he was in the past. I can not say I that you can hold him personally responsible for the upgraded CPO visibilty and eforcement of existing laws. I have not personnally seen him, or Ken or Frank (or the newbie they are training) write any unecassary tickets. I am not saying it hasn't happened or that it won't happen however I dont belive it to be a outright targeting of houndsmen this fall. As long as you are doing what you are suppose to be and you are where you are suppose to be at then you should have on problems at all.

I can say for a fact that the week prior to bow season opening that there were 3 indviduals ticketed in Richmond County in the Newland area for running out of season. But this was ignorance on their part.. first of all one guy had a dog box half full of bird dogs and was making a drive with the other bird dogs when they were approached and he of course lied and said he was fox hunting, but having a truck full of pointers doesnt lend to well to that story, the other two individuals were trying to catch up their hounds and admitted that they had turned out on deer, so obviously they all 3 got summons for failure to maintain control of their dogs. One gentleman also got a no hunting liscense ticket and the other got a ticket for being parked with two wheels on the state road. As if these guys wouldnt learn, a few days later in the middle of the week there were two more individuals from that same club who got caught turning out on deer standing in a field then when approached tried to claim they were fox hunting. I know part of the problem with this group was they just diditn or dont care, because their lease was up on OCT 1 and someone else had bid higher so they were loosing the property so they were down there the last few days they had it running amock on it, and since they no longer have any land down in Richmond County they didnt care who they ****** off. They now only have a few small tracts up in King George and Stafford or Spotsy. Sad thing is that the club use to be a great club, the oldest in King George and the largest at one point, but they have a group in there that is all about themselves and dont care about anything or anyone.

So they are in fact out there issuing tickets for true violations. I am glad they are doing so because if we dont take control of our ranks then we wont have any ranks left to control.

All this talk of the sky is falling (the season is going to be terrible or hound hunting is done and over) makes me laugh. It is by no means over if we just follow the laws and not take them into our own hands and run amock like some people do.

Jim and Derrick you both have good points and bad points, however I am siding with Jim on this one, we need an established training season for deer hounds. As long as we get a fair amount of time in the woods to be able to train or exercise on deer then I do not see the problem with it. It will shut up a lot of people complaining, I knwo a few guys who are strictly still hutners and their only gripe is the running out of season or thr RTR. As far as the RTR I see nothing wrong with the propposel that the SAC has made in regards to the landowner having to post his contact information and it be legit not just some office number where there is no one to answer in the evenings or weekends, make it house and or cell numbers so that the hound owner can try to contact the owner to let them know they are entering for the purpose of RTR. Also if the landowner doesnt want to post with his info or is to lazy then the RTR still exists as it is worded currently. Put some responsibility on the landowners so that they can not B***H when someone is walking in their land to get a dog.

Guess I will get down off my soapbox now.. go ahead and tell me how much you think I am nuts or an anti hunter because I dont share in the not change anything clique. I have broad shoulders I can take it, I just hope that when we do start truely loosing rights that everyone that who has the change nothing state of mind will finally see what they are loosing.

Yes, it is me and I am real. Hold on, this is going to be a long post, but I believe I have earned it. First, let me respond to Mr. Bishop. I am not anti-hunting or anti-dog hunting. I am a life long hunter, trapper, and fisherman. I have hunted deer, turkey, bear, small game and all types of game birds. I have hunted coons and rabbits with dogs. I hold a Virginia resident lifetime license. I am not a member of HSUS or PETA (unless it stands for People Eating Tasty Animals). To Mr. Sutton, I may walk funny, but I hope it’s not like a chicken (I do like to eat chickens.) I am human and I do have a sense of humor. I have worked for Fish and Game agencies for over 20 years.

Second, I would like to say that at the start of the Hound Study I called the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance when I was president of the Game Warden Association. I can’t remember who I spoke with it may have been Matt Bolton or Mr. Ratcliffe. I told them that the hound hunters and law enforcement needed to work together to protect all forms of hunting. I kinda got the cold shoulder. I can’t blame them if a government guy called my house I would be suspicious also. I left my number if they wanted to talk and even offered to attend one of their meetings as president of the Game Warden Association. I never heard back from anyone.

I see my newspaper article as made a stir. By no means was this a direct result of the hound study. It has nothing to do it. That is up to the DGIF Board to decide and I have absolutely nothing to do with it. What it has to do with is dealing directly with many of the complaints we receive in the Northern Neck. When I was the officer assigned to Richmond County we began a hunter/landowner relations committee to deal with some of the issues. It has worked well to some degree, but there are those that still want to cause trouble. In the past several years I have responded to landowners shooting towards hunters and their hounds, fist fights and collars being removed from hounds. All of this was about hound hunting. I have preached for 10 plus years that if hunters did not start policing their own someone else would. In my spare time I have followed the hunting trends in other states, specifically related to deerhound hunting. The news has not been good. I go on SpeedDog to learn about hunter opinions, trends and to just educate myself as to what is going on in the sport on hound hunting.

I have been on this site and watched you tear a part Mr. Hackett for his role in the Hound Study. Today’s world is about compromise and change. Just like wildlife either you adapt to a changing environment or die. Hound hunting does not have to die, but it will most likely change. Heck, it has already changed due to the fact that Virginia’s rural landscape has changed from farms to homes and strip malls. Let’s be real you all know the problems out there.

What I don’t understand is that y’all wanted us to enforce the existing laws, then when we do you question the intent of the law v. the letter of the law. I did not pull this stuff out of a hat. Some of it comes from Attorney General Opinions and case law. We do try to use common sense when dealing with violations. The sky is not falling; DGIF is determined to ensure that the tradition lives on. Landowners and hunter will have to reach some type of compromise or I believe the General Assembly will do it for you.

Look the bottom line is this. There are certain clubs and individuals causing a majority of the problems. In order to effectively deal with them everyone must pitch in. This may mean parking in the appropriate places and minding your “Ps” and “Qs” a little more closely. We must stop this adversarial relationship and work together to police our hunting ranks or all hunters will lose. I spoke with a member of the General Assembly the other day and he stated that hunters must begin to police their own ranks or hound hunting could be doomed. He was very supportive of continuing the tradition in Virginia. If you would spend one season in our shoes you would finally get what I am talking about. We all sometimes live in our own little worlds. I see want goes on everyday of the hunting season in five counties and beyond and it often not pretty.

I am not representing DGIF in this post, just myself. This was done on my own time from my own computer and now you have my personal email address. Please feel free to contact me if you have questions about my article. No threats please, I get enough of those from my wife.

Thanks and have a safe and productive season. Take a kid hunting.

Rich.....First let me say that I may have had a "knee-jerk" reaction to your post! But from my perspective it came across as intimdation.
After reading your response...I believe you are a "CPO" truely trying to do his job and enforce existing laws! I have no problem with the enforcement of them.
On more than one occaision I have pressed for more funding to hire,train, & retain "CPO's" to reduce the flagrant violations & miniscule complaints too!
Welcome to "SpeedDogs", and we appreciate your posts. This site has many discussions & debates.....we don't all agree...but as long as it is done so without profanity and they post their names...there is no problem...if they don't comply...it gets DELETED...plain & simple!
Claude does bring some valid points...and I'm sure that "common sense" would come into play on any decision made in those situations.
Derek does not consult with his "BOSS" before making posts on here and neither should you have to do so!!
I agree that there needs to be more "self-policing" of hunters by hunters, and that anything done to improve community and land owner relations is sorely needed!
I would look forward to meeting you, and thanks for your hard work & efforts!! It appears we need more "CPO's" like you to do the job right!!

ALLAN BISHOP
(JABBER JAW)

end dog hunting

first post but i felt i had to thank sgt. goszka for being up front.. i don't hunt the northern neck but not too far from it in king and queen, and if i'm screwing up then i deserve a ticket... thats just how it works. now the road blocking thing will be hard but we will do our best but some time you just can't help when the dogs are at the road ya gotta pick em up to keep them safe

once again thank you sgt Gonszka for your reply
josh

Mr. Goszka,
Don't know you, probably will never meet you since I'm from NC,but I would like to say thanks to you and all law enforcement of all kinds. We gripe and grumble about the laws, hunting, fishing, traffic, etc. and we don't appreciate the ones who enforce the laws, UNTIL WE NEED THEM. Then law enforcement is the first people we call. No I do not agree with all the laws, but it is better than being lawless. As a school teacher, drivers education instructor, and high school and college official of 3 sports, I do know how it feels sometimes to have a job that some do not appreciate, but it is a much needed job. So to all those that do enforce the laws and do a job that practically none of us would do, I say thanks.

My name is not Mr. or Sgt. It is just Rich. I put my pants on one leg at at time every morning just like everyone else.

As Sir Robert Peel the founder of England's modern police force stated "The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

I am no different than anyone else who works for a living.

I think next year a deer hound training season should be allowed. When bow season comes in hounds can only be trained on saturday evening or saturday night. This will give us hound owners all day sunday to get the hounds up so they won't be in the woods on monday when the bow hunters are in there stands. Just My 2 Cents

OK, Rich.

So in this post you sound real.

But in your first post you did sound like a nitpicker.

I traveled for a living for 56 years, driving more miles than anyone would ever believe and I can assure you than I get a good case of road rage when I pass a yard sale and 10 cars are parked with their left wheels 2 or 3 feet on the pavement.

But on the other hand, my concern wasreal that you sounded like you would make no exception for the guy who is on a narrow road like so many of VA's secondary roads, in a farm community where every one knows about deer hunting and all this guy needs is about 2 minutes to point his dog tracking antennae at the woods long enough to see if his dog is there or not.

And sometimes, if the dogs are coming straight at you, you need to stay there to catch them. Sometimes there is room to pull off and sometimes there is not.

Frankly, I consider that an emergency. After your last post, I feel that you probably would also think it an emergency.

But if you read your first post again through our eyes, it sounded like no exceptions to the letter of the law, period.

Anyway, you sound real in this post and we appreciate your taking the time to write that much.

Sometime when you have time, you might explain what you mean when you talk about controlling foxhounds.

Does that mean that a person who is listening to them from his truck and moving constantly to keep in touch or does that mean that you have to be within a certian distance of them? Like out in the woods.

Or does not controlling mean dumping them out and going back to the house and going to bed and let them do whatever hounds want to do.

"Controlling" is a word pretty much open to interpretation and can be bent in many directions.

With your hunting experience I expect you can interpret the situation correctly, but can the guy you hired this summer who never hunted with hounds make the same decision?

My last comment is that I am one who suggested many times that more game wardens are needed and that I would gladly pay more for a license to fund them, even though I am a non resident hunter who already pays double, and have for something like 12 years. So I am for more wardens, but I am also for common sense judgement.

I remember something that happened 50 years ago. I was hunting within a few miles of my farm. I was riding a horse. My wife was with me and I think my Dad was, but I believe he was out in the woods on his horse.

We had about 30 hounds, two horse trailers and my truck with the dog bed on it. The game warden drove by, stopped and looked at all of that stuff and looked right at me and said "I suppose that anyone that spends all of this money to hunt surely has a license" and drove off without another word.

Well, I had kept putting off going into town to get my license and I did not. But you can bet your life I had one before the end of the next day.

He got the job done without being mean.

CSSJR

Rich -

First off, I welcome you to speeddogs. I do have a question for you. Are we at speeddogs to believe that DGIF’s policy is to allow its officers to post on the internet message boards about their official actions/new interpretations of the law without clearing the same with their superiors at DGIF?

I typically like Derrick and Claudes post, they have different opinions some times and it makes for an entertaining disagreement. However I dont believe I agree with stirring the pot when Mr. Goszka took his own time to post. Just because he posted a message doesnt mean he has to get "clearance" to. Derrick did you ask your boss if you could post anything today? No I didnt think so. I also disagree with Claude, if he did not have a hunting license and he was hunting he deserves a ticket. If he did not have a drivers license and he was driving he would deserve a ticket, what if he hit your vehicle? No license no Insurance? Same thing. People tend to think that Law's and law enforcement are good, until that law applies to them. That is the problem with you all, and as a fellow law enforcement officer (Not game wardent but still a cop) and hound owner I apreciate Mr. Goszka's time and efforts. As a cop you interprete the law how it is wrote, if there is a violation of that law you enforce it, no matter the excuse or reason. So yalls's fight is not with the officer that enforces that law, it is with the people that make the laws. So hold them accountable for those laws. As he said he has a job just like every one else.

thanks for responding rich.i echo mr suttons post,he also raises some very valid questions and concerns,and if you have time could you please answer them here.

"No I didnt think so. I also disagree with Claude, if he did not have a hunting license and he was hunting he deserves a ticket. If he did not have a drivers license and he was driving he would deserve a ticket, what if he hit your vehicle? No license no Insurance? Same thing. People tend to think that Law's and law enforcement are good, until that law applies to them. That is the problem with you all, and as a fellow law enforcement officer (Not game wardent but still a cop"


George:

Slight difference. I never heard of a hound running over anyone and leaving them dead in the middle of the road. Nor do I have any hounds that have ever been caught driving without insurance, so your analogy is way off the chart.

And you also missed another point.

My story took place 50 years ago. You see, in those days cops did not run around dressed up like Rambo. They did not consider the citizens the enemy. The cops in town walked the beat, knew the people, and in many ways enforced the law without causing people embarrassment.

If I had got a ticket that day, I would not have complained at all. I would have paid it.

That warden showed that he knew how to get results and at the same time gain support from the community.

Had he encountered someone shooting in a dangerous manner, hunting out of season, etc., he would not have hesitated to make an arrest.

It also should be noted that although some game wardens in those days would ticket everyone in sight of a pack of foxhounds, many others would not for the reason that it is hard to sort out who is really hunting the hounds and who just happened to stop in the road to see the fox cross the road.

Some wardens will look at the collars and want to see the guy that has his name on the collars. Some consider anyone at the scene a hunter.

In those days, it was not uncommon for a half dozen neighbors (farmers, mostly) to stop in the road to see the fox and my hounds cross.

So that warden got the job done without getting into all of that.

CSSJR

"I get a good case of road rage when I pass a yard sale and 10 cars are parked with their left wheels 2 or 3 feet on the pavement."

My only problem is you seem to think that there should be exceptions to the law, however in law enforcement there is not. The guy has a job to do which is enforce the laws on the books. As I tried the quote thing also if the law says pull your vehicle off the pavement, then pull it off the pavement. The people at the yard sale were just lucky to not recieve a ticket. If I were to cut you a break and then not cut a break to the next guy for the same violation, what would that be misconstrued as? Believe me when I say I am just as guilty of gettin excited when I see one of my dogs in the middle of the road and I would probably hold up traffic to catch that dog so he would not get hit, but if that is a ticketable offense then I will just take the hit instead of my dog taking one. My only point was dont have the attituide that I deserve a break but the other guy doesnt, because that really makes a for a law enforcement officers nightmare.

George - Thanks for your comments. I do value your opinions and honesty. I would like to ask you a question on how you would handle a situation.

off duty cops getting drunk and driving or requesting the blue taxi to come and pick them up. would you write a fellow cop a ticket from your area.

I also disgree with your analogy from 50 years ago, being that it was 50 years ago! There is a hugh difference in the times. I cant speak for CPO's however I know I may field from 20-60 calls for service a day, in a 12 hour shift that is basically 12 hours. Do I have time to "walk the beat" or meet and greet people at all. Heck no I barely have time to take a lunch. (I am off today). So all in all I dont have time to establish if you are a law abiding citizen on a personal basis, I just know you are a citizen, so what do I do? I enforce the law how it reads the same for you as I do anyone else, either an infraction or a Felony. I apologize if any of this sounds like I am attacking you.

The whole point is please don't nitpick when doing your job. I have respect for law enforcment but not the ones that nitpick and try extra hard to find something to write a ticket for. I hope all of the game wardens that nitpick or hide in the bushes with tree branches stuck in their hat... will find themselves at the downrange end of a bean feild this season when the boys open up on a gang of does.



Kyle Stotesberry
252-809-9124

For DWI I definatly would make an arrest. Regardless of who you are.

George - Thats more than other fellow officers would do. Thank you for your honesty.

Sense everone has there own interperation of the DGIF laws, and some people have received tickets as of late for running dogs out of season how do you interperate outside feild trials, there are usually quite a few held after hunting season to raise money for clubs. If the dogs are not running foxes they are technically breaking the law right? Just intrested allways wanted to run in a couple of them I have herd great things about The big Orbit hunt and a couple of others but is It going to be Ileagle now that the DGIF is starting to crack down on the rules.

Real situtaion last season.

Hunter in our club recieved a ticket last year for having two wheels on the road while catching his hound. Warden pulled up and went to writting.

Three weeks later Im on the stand, warden pulls up, younger fella and ask for my license and then my gun. After he finishes checking my stuff I say: Officer your fellow officer wrote one of our members a ticket for having wheels on the pavement a couple of weeks ago, but you pulled your vehicle up and left two wheels on the road with no flashers or lights??? he briskly walked back over to me and replied: YOU SEE THAT ( AS HE POINTED AT HIS BADGE) HE SAID THAT RIGHT THEIR SAYS I CAN DO WHAT EVER I WANT TO DO. And ask me YOU GOT THAT!
after that him and his possey came down to my club every saturday trying their butts off to write tickets, fortunate we all follow the law. I will have to say in our area when they show up their demeaner is one of a drill seargant, kind of your guilty of something and I am going to burn your asses you red neck mf's.

George, I agree about the yard sale mess on the side of the road.....that is out of hand.

I can tell you one thing...if I have to stop my truck in the middle of a road to catch my dog and keep him from getting run over because people SPEED UP when they see you trying to catch your hounds there I'll pay the ticket the Game warden writes me...In my opinion I'm protecting my hound and the idiot flying down the road that swerves to miss him and wrecks...we had a guy have a hound hit last year that he had ON A LEASH...my hounds mean the world to me and I'll do whatever I have to to protect them in situations like that...it's safer to stop traffic and inconvenience someone for 5 minutes than to have a deer and pack of hounds running through speed demons and cause a wreck...if i'm just tracking then I need to be off the road...I thank all LEO's for their hard work, their job can't be easy...I've seen some that just want to check in and make sure things are in order and I've seen some that want to look at every inch of everything to try to write a ticket...I hope that the hound hunters don't become targeted this year more than in years past...it isn't right to target one group of hunters because they hunt a different way than another group.

I WONDER HOW MANY BACK COUNTRY RESIDENTS HAVE GOTTEN A TICKET FOR PULLING OF THE SIDE OF THE ROAD WITH TWO WHEELS STILL ON PAVEMENT TO GET THEIR MAIL OUT OF THE MAILBOX.

"My only point was dont have the attituide that I deserve a break but the other guy doesnt, because that really makes a for a law enforcement officers nightmare."

A cop that can't make the distinction between a highway, which is what I was speaking of concerning the yard sales, and a back country road that is used primarily if not exclusively by farmers who live, hunt and farm using those roads, then he is not a reasonable cop. He is one who goes by the letter of the law and not the intent.

These same roads only a few years ago were dirt/gravel and there was no difference between the shoulder and the middle of the road.

CSSJR

Mr.Bishop to clarifiy the difference is I volunteer my time on behalf of an all volunteer non paid organization with no command structure, while Mr. CPO Rich Goszka works for a para military highly structured organization with a rigid chain of command where he is a 24 hours a day sworn member……hardly an organization where Sgt’s announce policy decisions to the public without being directed (or selected) to do so by their superiors (in Richmond).

Rich came on here as a visitor with good intentions, although I admit that I took his post as being different from what he intended.

But the point is that he came back with a second post and sounded like a real guy.

So I think it is unkind to put him on the spot on why he is posting or anything else.

I think it fair to challenge him on something with which we disagree or question, but whether he has to ask his boss or his mother or who the heck cares before he posts is not the way we should treat him.

I hope he posts more. I hope he has the time to answer questions because we don't have enough access to these guys to begin with. You might see one of them every two or three years, or in my case once every 30 years until I went to a couple of the VDGIF meetings, and we should use that opportunity to learn from them, not ask them if their mother knows they post.

CSSJR

Chuck, The RTR and concelaed weapons. That is a good question. Under 18.2-308 the concealed weapons law the following subsection states: O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property. Under the RTR law you are prohibited from carrying a firearm while in the act of retrieving your hounds. The answer in my opinion is, no you can not have any firearm permited or otherwise while retrieving your hounds. Again, an excellent question. Thanks

These laws are nothing new. They have been on the books for years. The intent of the article was to inform hunters about the specifics of the law and to address issues that have been occurring in my district for years. Tempers have been boiling over the last several years. Fights breaking out shot being fired. Not only between hunters v. landowners but hunters v. hunters. This is all due to the every shrinking hunting lands. Our officers are caught in the middle. They take heat from both sides, but my officers have always defended hunting and they are all hunters themselves. They educate non-hunters daily on the sport of hound hunting. You all must realize that we have and are experiencing a societal shift from an agricultural society to a suburban one. I had a gentleman ask my above running his deer hounds during the closed season at a recent meeting. He felt it was not fair to ticketed for this violation. I asked him if he knew it was illegal. He stated yes. Then we get many calls from citizens complaining about hounds chasing deer during the closed season. Are we just to ignore these complaints of clear violations of law? We had our wildlife regs meeting recently and the showings were very poor the best number in region 1 was 9 people in Warsaw. No one recommended a deer hound chase season. At all the hound study public meetings, no one recommended a deer hound chase season. I recommend hunters get engaged in the process rather than hinder it. My point is as hunters we must not only follow the laws, but ethics play a huge part in our sport of hunting no matter what animal you hunt or your methods. I will respond to any questions just email me. I answered 10 emails already from very pleasant hunters. I am not here to fight with anyone. Respect is a two way street. I have found that this may be the new way of providing information and interacting with each other. Not a bad thing. Gas costs are still high and this is more convenient than a phone. This might be the best way for DGIF to engage its constituents. I will make that recommendation. As for the 24/7, yes when called. I have a fireman's pole that leads from my house to my truck. This job is very demanding that is one reason we have a high turn over rate. If you want to debate problems, what do we do with clubs or groups releasing hounds on several acres and then lining the roads to hunt properties they don’t have permission. They never leave their trucks they can have a loaded gun and they claim they are looking for their hounds. Do you think this is not an uncommon problem? Then ride with us. You’ll see the truth. My point, debate the solutions rather than throw rocks at everyone. It does not sovle anything. Maybe if as a group you came up with some of your own solutions to the problems it would go along way to protecting the sport. If you would like I'll even post a problem then y'all can solve it.

"They never leave their trucks they can have a loaded gun and they claim they are looking for their hounds. Do you think this is not an uncommon problem?"

Maybe I am over simplifying, but this one looks like an easy one to me.

If he does not have permission to hunt on that land and he shoots the deer on that land, then he has with no question violated RTR.

If he shoots the deer in the road, he has violated that law that prohibits shooting in, down or across a public road.

Any resident, land owner or whatever citizen could take a plate number, look the guy in the eye and call the law.

My interest is in foxhunting. I belong to a deer club in VA only because they allow me to foxhunt on club leases.

So my next question is: Why does the foxhunter have to be afraid to stop his truck to catch a hound when it is easy to see that he has no weapon other than a training pistol (rat shot) and a self defense weapon....no long gun of any kind.

Tht should clearly indicate that he is not running deer or hunting deer from the road.

As for the deer hunter, if he does not fire a shot, it is hard to prosecute him for violating RTR, that I understand.

But there again, if he is a member of a club that leases say 2,000 acres in the neighborhood, it should be easy to identify him as not the kind of hunter you describe. He would more than likely only be off the 2,000 acres because he can't help it and is trying to stop hounds.

Heck, if I were the game warden, I would turn on all of my lights to stop cars and help him catch his hounds.

Then I would tell him that I want to see him back on his own leases within the next few minutes.

Now as for the bad guys you describe, I agree. I would give him a ticket for spitting on the road and anything else I could find.

But not a guy that had the bad luck to have his hounds run off leases that he has paid lots of money for and would rather be there than here.

CSSJR

again i echo claudes post and still waiting for answers from his first post add to that his last.
rich the problem i have with all this is last year a club around us shot a doe on a non doe day and left it in the woods,aparently it made its way out to the road and died our club was hunting the area too and we made the call so as not to get blamed for this crime and to help the cpo.no response at all,were told he would be there.yes i relize yall have a thankless job and alot of ground to cover,but to not respond to that,but pop out of the bush's to right a parking ticket for the man that is taking two minutes to load his hound or just stops long enough to get a beep on his dog or dogs,well it just seems rediculous.i understand there are problems and by all means those that are doing the things you mention deserve a ticket,no doubt.we understand were your coming from, can you understand were me and claude are coming from.

Rich - I'm still waiting for my questions to be answered. I do have another question. How many tickets have you written for interference with hunting?

Rich - With all due respect, the statement that in all the public meetings of the hound study, "No one recommended a deer hound training season" This is a mis-statement. I was present at Appomattox and Suffolk. At both meetings it was suggested that a training season be looked at, as long as it did not affect other training seasons ie: coon, bear rabbit, etc. I have probaly more then 50 e mails saved that were sent to the SAC that support the same. I discussed this very issue on this website many times. The clear majority of inputs are in support of the idea, of course,many have their opinions on certain specifics. It is important for everyone to keep in mind that this suggestion is meant to resolve two conflicts. One is the present unlawful act of training deer hounds outside the legal general firearms season. (This law is antiquated, and when measured by the laws and practices of other deer hound hunting states goes to prove that Virginia, though the largest deerhound hunting state in the country, has somehow missed the boat on doing what is right and logical.) Because of this, we find ourselves in conflict with the still hunters. Which is problem #2. It also happens to be one of the top problems identified by the SAC. This oversight must be corrected so that we can get to a point where a reasonable, legal window is provided for DHT. Then we can resolve the indifferences between the hound hunters and the still hunters and unite together in defending the attacks against hunting in general.
I respect the input of the CPO's and I appreciate them coming on this site and giving their views of the issues.
I will share the input given by the CPO's during our SAC meetings. It was the expressed opinion of the CPO's in our meetings that, hound retrieval is not hunting. The big problems identified in the study was hunting from the roads. ie: racing up and down the roads pulling off on the shoulders and bailing out w/ a gun with intention of harvesting the deer. At the same time causing an issue as a public safety hazard and displaying unethical behavior in the eyes of the non-hunting public. It is understood and hopeful that different CPO's will view different situations from a perspective of common sense. "What is in the best interest of the public?" If a hound is walking in the road, it presents a public hazard. I would think that it would be the in the best interest of the public to get the hound off the road immediently. In doing so, can the retriever do this without impedeing traffic? Some times you just might have to do so, to protect the hound and the public. I realize we are walking a thin line between legality and reason. Personally, (I know some will think I am extreme) I have installed a yellow strobe light on my truck to be seen 360 degrees, installed reflectors around my dog box, installed reflective tape 270 degrees around the box, installed reflective tape in my door jams and have installed a additional break/hazard light in my trailer hitch that will work in conjunction with my emer. flashers. When I flip the switch, everyone coming and going will be warned of a traffic hazard. Though I may still be cited a ticket. I will be able to present an argument that I have gone over and above reasonable measures to protect the public and the hounds. It would be my hope that if observed doing this by a CPO, they would assist me in warning traffic and take the time to measure the situation by what is the most right thing to do in that situation.

claude brings up another question rich when he speaks of a defense weapon,bow and black powder hunters with a conceal cary permit can cary while hunting,does that apply to the rtr law?

Rich Goszka - Thanks for your efforts to rein in the illegal deer chasing.

Mr. Sutton and other fox hunters - I don't really think that fox hunters have much to worry about regarding the issue of controlling or managing their dogs. If you are actually chasing or hunting fox with your dogs, then I would trust a CPO to give you the benefit. But deer hunting groups are just putting their dogs out with no real effort to control or manage - just pick them up after a few hours or the next day. This is what Rich is saying is not fox chasing/hunting, no matter what the owners say. These dogs are either chasing deer or at the least, running at large. Foxhunters should be angry when others claim their sport to skirt the law. There is a good VA OAG opinion on this located at www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/1999opns/feb993.pdf.

Derrick - Aw heck, why bother?

John clarify your comment to me. Thanks

In reply to John and Derick:

Rich was kind enough to answer my questions about foxhunters in a private email to me.

I have no doubt that he will be fair, as John pointed out. I do worry about running into some new guy who has an attitude.

I think he has gone way beyond what his job requires in comming onto this site and taking questions and suggestions from us and I think we should be polite to him.

So we should give him some respect, not because he has a badge but because he is trying to communicate with us.

If we don't, he will more than likely go away and we will lose the chance to make our views known to him.

CSSJR

He also answered my questions through e-mail.

I too am a CPO and enjoy reading the posts on "Speeddogs". I work in the Greensville County area, many of you have seen me at Poole's and Emerson Poarch's fox pens while patrolling. I have been instrumental in getting several clubs (Last Chance, Cato Hill) into foxhound/beagle outside field trials. There was a question asked by "John on Oct 16th" on outside field trials being effected by the statue of running dogs out of season that was never answered.

The answer is no, read on.

All field trials (fox pen and outside hunts) are required to have a field trial permit issued by our department. This permit covers the club or person to legally conduct a field trial. The permit should be displayed in public view in the area where the registration is being conducted. If a permit is not displayed, ask to see it. If the club or person conducting the field trial can not produce the permit, more than likely it's an illegal field trial and subject to closure and some legal paperwork requiring a court appearance.

I too have much of the same problems as Rich on the Northern Neck. Hunt Clubs fighting each other, landowners complaining about hunt clubs and their dogs, road hunting, running dogs out of season (includes illegal field trials) and spotlighting. It's sad to say there are a few bad apples in the bunch that gives hunting a bad name.

There are 3 types of people in this world. Hunters, non-hunters and those on the fence. Here lately, those on the fence have been leaning towards taking sides with the non-hunters.

Derick,
Hound hunting opinions run the gamut from radical views held by HSUS/PETA, through a huge range of more reasonable opinions, and on to the radical views held by you and others. I thought your posting of Rich Goszka's original article was great although I knew you were just trying to stir the pot against his position, which you subsequently confirmed with several posts. On numerous forums you advocate enforcement of existing laws versus modifying existing laws or creating new ones. Here we have a situation where a CPO calmly cites his plan to enforce existing laws and you try to stir the pot against that plan. Oh well, I guess any controversial issue gets its radicals at both ends. But just as I would not bother to argue with HSUS/PETA regarding their opinions, the same applies to you.

John - The reason inwhich I posted the article was to inform you and other members of speeddog. The current rules and regulations need to be enforced but not at the extent of using a different color verison than the meaning of the regulation itself. He is a sgt and has men at his command, Do all cpo's under his command see the regulation his way or do they read and act on it a different way. How one percieves the law another may not and act accordingly.

JOHN LOCKE,
I AM NOT TRYING TO STIR ANY POTS,BUT AM I TOO A RADICAL FOR DEFENDING SOMETHING THAT HAS BROUGHT ONLY PLEASURE AND POSITIVE EXPERIENCES TO ME , MY FRIENDS, AND FAMILY. AGAIN, THE OVERIDING PROBLEM WITH THE ENTIRE ISSUE IS THE LUMPING OF ALL HOUND HUNTERS INTO A SITUATION WHERE WE FEEL THE NEED TO BE DEFENSIVE AND REACT TO OUR DETRACTORS DUE TO THE ACTIONS OF A FEW.

I HAVE BEEN CALLED A LOT OF THINGS,BUT RADICAL ISNT ONE OF THEM.
JMMJR,VHDA

John Morse,
I welcome your defense. The lumping of all hound hunters is a very serious problem but I believe that the overriding problem is "the actions of a few". As you defend what I trust are honorable hunting habits, don't make the same mistake made by your detractors and lump yourself in with all hound hunters as a defensive posture. Be willing to stand out to challenge those "few". Be part of the process versus protesting on the side. Support fair measures intended to improve the situation for all ethical hunters. Rich Goszka presented a reasonable interpretation of existing law along with a reasonable plan of enforcement. In his first post (not the article), he states,
"What I don’t understand is that y’all wanted us to enforce the existing laws, then when we do you question the intent of the law v. the letter of the law. I did not pull this stuff out of a hat. Some of it comes from Attorney General Opinions and case law. We do try to use common sense when dealing with violations." That is the best that a law enforcement officer can do and it appears that Rich is doing a great job.

THESE RULES BEEN IN VIRGINIA FOR YEARS. IN KING WILLIAM COUNTY YOU HAVE TO BE 100 YARDS OFF THE ROAD TO HAVE A LOADED FIRE ARM DURING HUNTING SEASON. RUNNING DOGS ON DEER IN VIRGINIA DURING THE OFF SEASON IS OUT. FOX HOUNDS IS CONTINUOS OPEN SEASON.WE HAVE RAN INTO THIS PROBLEM SEVERAL TIMES RUNNING DEER. MY ADVICE IS TO KEEP YOUR TRUCK MOVING WHEN YOU HERE SOME ONE COMING.THEY HAVE TO PROVE OR SEE YOUR DOGS RUNNING DEER. I USE TO GET PERMISSION FROM LAND OWNERS TO PARK IN THERE YARD TO HERE MY DOGS RUN. THANKS FOR FOX PENS.

JOHN LOCKE,
YOU MAKE SOME GOOD POINTS.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I AND THE PEOPLE I KNOW AND HUNT WITH HAVE BEEN STANDING UP TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE POOR DECISIONS WHILE HUNTING FOR YEARS. SIMPLY PUT, WE DONT TOLERATE IT.

FURTHER, I COMMEND RICH AND ALL OTHER CPO STAFF.THEY HAVE A TOUGH THANKLESS JOB. MY GROUPS HAVE ALWAYS COOPERATED WITH THEM. ALTHOUGH ITS BEEN MANY YEARS AGO, WE LET THE WARDENS IN N.C. USE OUR CLUBHOUSE TO STAY IN WHILE THEY INVESTIGATED A LARGE FIRELIGHTING, DEER MEAT SELLING RING IN CUURITUCK N. C.. THIS RESULTED IN A MAJOR BUST AND I BELIEVE SOME PEOPLE ACTUALLY GOING TO JAIL.

MY MAJOR POINT IS THE WAY THE ISSUE HAS BEEN FRAMED FROM THE START. AS AN ANALOGY,I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF LAWFUL CAR DRIVERS IN OUR STATE WOULD REACT DEFENSIVELY IF DMV INITIATED A GENERAL STUDY OF CAR DRIVING AS A RESPONSE TO THOSE WHO DRIVE UNDER THE INFLUENCE.THAT IS NOT MY UNDERSTANDING OF HOW OUR SOCIETY DEALS WITH PROBLEMS .

AT ANY RATE,HERES HOPING WE ALL DO THE RIGHT THING THIS SEASON.
JMMJR,VHDA

The study is over with, debating it now does not help the sport. The debate now should surround around the issues confronting hound hunting and how to address them. Think solutions and image, just as you did in the Pilot article and video now that had some real impact. The real issue is how do we get the message to those causing the problems either intentional or just out of ignorance.