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Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

”I'm not "twisting" anything, I'm just saying there are species out there whos offspring are genetically affected by outside influences.”

What exactly are you trying to say then, in comparing toads with the sheep in Genesis 30:37-39?
Do you think that’s how it works when sheep are bred?
Read this again;
“And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods. And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink. And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted."

It (Genesis 30:37-39) was used to show how the Bible is not 100% correct as claimed. You tell me how this is correct. You tell me how this works without the use of “God did it” or some magical happening…or an assumption on your part.
It seems you are in fact twisting it with your comparison in an effort to make those passages seem correct. Besides that, comparing amphibians with mammals is not a very good idea to begin with.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

Well I don't believe they gave birth right after they drank. However, I do agree with Phil that, ”Jacob put something in the sheep's water that affected their genes, that isn't impossible.”(I don't believe it affected the parent's genes, but the developing babie's). We see this kind of thing happen today, where the parent animal or person intaking a certain thing will cause the developing baby to have a genetic mutation. Genetic mutations could be something as slight as different color patterns or extra hair growth, to something as extreme as having extra limbs, or no limbs at all. Ask a farmer, nurse, scientist etc. It happens.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

Tom,
As I have said earlier, the Bible is so vague you can pretty much make passages say what you wish them to say. You certainly have done so with this one, nothing but a huge assumption on your part (well Phil’s assumption that you agree with) about some potion. The passages make no mention of putting something in the sheep’s water - that is completely made up by you and Phil.

The flocks came there to drink and mate but it was because of the rods that they came out ring-streaked, speckled, and spotted, not some unknown substance put in the water. We are talking about what the Bible says is 100% correct, not what it doesn't say.

Branches from different types of trees do not cause variations in sheep’s offspring.
Ask a farmer, nurse, scientist etc. It does not happen that way.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

"the Bible is so vague you can pretty much make passages say what you wish them to say."
People back then didnt have as many words in their vocab as we do today.

" The passages make no mention of putting something in the sheep’s water - that is completely made up by you and Phil."
Um:"And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters IN THE WATERING TROUGHS when the flocks came to drink..."
Completely made up?

"Branches from different types of trees do not cause variations in sheep’s offspring."
You dont know what the combination of those branch juices couldve done. What are some (if not, most) poisons, medications, and drugs made from? Plants. And, obviously, some medications and drugs cause abnormal babies if the pregnant mother takes them. Now obviously tree branch extracts wouldnt have as an extreme effect as drugs, but it goes to show it can cause something to the developing baby.

"You tell me how this works without the use of “God did it” or some magical happening…"
I quoted this from our previous debate in "how the dinos go wiped out":"Sorry, if you take the Bible as literal and “God” created man in his image then that is where the description came from. If on the other hand you don’t take the Bible as literal then “God” could be something like a ball of energy. The “Bang”?...just a thought."

So let me get this straight, you believe God exists, but you think it's ridiculous to think He can do anything like miracles?

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

"the Bible is so vague you can pretty much make passages say what you wish them to say."
”People back then didnt have as many words in their vocab as we do today.”

But if it’s “Gods word” then “he” would have been a little more obvious, and not left room for any questioning. Shoot, “he” could even have had “his word” change automatically over time in accordance with man’s evolution, if “he” is so jealous and wants us to worship and obey “him”.

”Completely made up?”

Yes, looking at the branches do not cause different types of offspring, you guys added the part about Jacob adding something to the water, those branches alone in the water do not cause those effects.

”You dont know what the combination of those branch juices couldve done. What are some (if not, most) poisons, medications, and drugs made from? Plants. And, obviously, some medications and drugs cause abnormal babies if the pregnant mother takes them. Now obviously tree branch extracts wouldnt have as an extreme effect as drugs, but it goes to show it can cause something to the developing baby.”

Oh please, the Bible mentions what the trees in question were, do those juices make a potion needed to develop different types of sheep? No, they do not, the point of all this is that those passages are wrong, those passages are folklore. Folklore is not 100% accurate, therefore the Bible is not 100% correct as claimed by Jack.

”So let me get this straight, you believe God exists, but you think it's ridiculous to think He can do anything like miracles?”

Tom, that was used to illustrate a different way of looking at what “God” is, in a sense that the Biblical “God” is thought to be a male, as you just did using “He”. I may or may not believe in “God” or “a Source”, I never said, but I do believe that the Bible is not “God’s word”.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

Whatever. I just pointed out that outside influences can genetically affect a developing baby. I'll leave the rest of this debate up to the other "Bible thumping fundamentalists" here, since they seem so eager to help me defend our faith...

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

Teratogens are what alter fetal genes during pregnancy. There are no known teratogens in toxic concentrations in poplar, hazel, and chestnut tree wood. Even if there were, the offspring would be much more likely to be horribly mutated and non-viable than just different colors. And pilling the wood to make patterns of different colors would have no effect. As I said before, why did God talk about the different patterned rods, and not about the super-high-tech gene splicing agent that really did all the work? Was He trying to be deceptive?

How badly do you have to mangle a plain reading of the Bible to bring it in line with your preconceived notions? (Rhetorical question with an obvious answer...)

The frog example you described was not changes to genetics; it was purely environmental changes to phenotype. You were wrong, Tom.

Tom said "I'll leave the rest of this debate up to the other "Bible thumping fundamentalists" here, since they seem so eager to help me defend our faith..."

So you concede the point? Because no one has developed anything like a reasonable defense?

And if you concede the point, you concede that the KJV of the Bible is not an inerrant translation. So what's it gonna be?

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

"As I said before, why did God talk about the different patterned rods, and not about the super-high-tech gene splicing agent that really did all the work? Was He trying to be deceptive?"
Humans werent as intelligent as they are today. You seem to be forgetting that. It would be like teaching a toddler biochemistry: you just dont do it cause they wouldnt understand at the time. And obviously it wouldnt be super-high-tech, unless got performed a miracle.


"The frog example you described was not changes to genetics; it was purely environmental changes to phenotype. You were wrong, Tom."
Even if I am wrong, it still changed their appearance, which is the main topic at hand.



"So you concede the point? Because no one has developed anything like a reasonable defense?"
I'm just agitated that people like jack make a bold claim, i try to help them defend their case, and they just sit back and not help.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

Tom said: "Humans werent as intelligent as they are today. You seem to be forgetting that. It would be like teaching a toddler biochemistry: you just dont do it cause they wouldnt understand at the time. And obviously it wouldnt be super-high-tech, unless got performed a miracle."

If it were a miracle, why not say that God changed the animals. It doesn't.

If it were some other high-tech reagent added to the water, why mention the rods at all? Why not say that the Holy juice was added which changed the colors?

No, it says patterned variations of wood were added to the watering trough, and the animals changed their colors. We know by science that there is nothing in that wood that would cause the changes in patterns. So, was God being intentionally misleading to his readers?

Or was the author an ignorant mortal who was telling a story as he had heard it, and God had nothing to do with it?

Either God is a deceiver, or he didn't inspire that particular passage.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

Humans werent as intelligent as they are today. You seem to be forgetting that. “

There are Creationists who argue the opposite of that, (I’m not sure but I think Hovind is one of them) in that they believe that not only were humans smarter then, but they were also 16 feet tall! But in any case, your point is they were not as intelligent, so by using that logic, they would never understand evolution, geology, the origins of the universe, and just about anything else science is doing these days so why argue against it based on what the Bible says if it was written for dummies?

"The frog example you described was not changes to genetics; it was purely environmental changes to phenotype. You were wrong, Tom."
”Even if I am wrong, it still changed their appearance, which is the main topic at hand.”

Actually the main topic at hand is “the Bible is correct 100% of the time and I challenge anyone to disprove the Bible's accuracy”, which if I remember correctly, you at one point on another exchange we had said something to the effect of – ok so the earth might be old. Which if you still have some doubts the Earth is young would mean the Bible is not 100% correct.

"So you concede the point? Because no one has developed anything like a reasonable defense?"
”I'm just agitated that people like jack make a bold claim, i try to help them defend their case, and they just sit back and not help.”

I understand your frustration, I gave Jack what HE asked for and then he disappeared. Anyway your defense using an unmentioned magic potion is as much of a cop-out as the old “God did it”.
Also the flood impossibilities and the age of the Earth points are still left unaddressed. So unless Jack can prove the Bible is correct about Noah and the flood and that the earth is roughly 6,000 years old (and maybe another explanation of those Genesis passages) then I still believe the Bible is not 100% correct.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

"There are Creationists who argue the opposite of that, (I’m not sure but I think Hovind is one of them) in that they believe that not only were humans smarter then, but they were also 16 feet tall! But in any case, your point is they were not as intelligent, so by using that logic, they would never understand evolution, geology, the origins of the universe, and just about anything else science is doing these days so why argue against it based on what the Bible says if it was written for dummies?"
If they were smarter than they are now, and man's intelligence along with technology grew, then by now we should have more high-tech things than we have today, right? So I disagree on that.
And I'm not saying it was made for "dummies". "Dummies" and people from ancient times are two different things. Stupidity is having the potential of learning concepts and such (at their time), but just not getting it. We cant call them dumb just because they dont have the same intelligence as someone living today.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

“If they were smarter than they are now, and man's intelligence along with technology grew, then by now we should have more high-tech things than we have today, right? So I disagree on that.”

Yeah, me too…and just about everything else Kent Hovind advocates.

”We cant call them dumb just because they dont have the same intelligence as someone living today. “

I think they had the same intelligence that we have today, (they were ignorant, not less intelligent) we just have had an extra 2000 years or so to develop our knowledge. You are saying those people back then could believe those sticks created the differences in the sheep but not a potion, and that is why God didn’t have potion written in those passages? I say mule fritters, that is just folklore that ignorant people believed, like many other things in the Bible.

Re: Debate? Maybe a friendly discussion...

Exactly. The Bible says lots of stuff about the material world, but the Bible told the ancients nothing they didn't already believe about the world. The only assertions it made that were outside of common belief of the day were ones that couldn't be examined (i.e. "spiritual").

Now, is this more likely from a book from mortal sources, or a book from an omnipotent, omniscient God trying to talk to His people? You make the call.