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As a non-Christian, I have a question; what is the Christian perspective on G_D’s purpose for humans? Is there a purpose in the bible besides “be fruitful and multiply,” and to follow the ten commandments lessons? What is G_D's ultimate plan for us on this earth?
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Although I am not the moderator, nor a Christian, let me try to answer that.
God's plan for us on this Earth is to worship him, obey him...and then die and go to heaven.
I'm really not sure why God put humans on this earth (But we are here!). I also know that we ruined God's perfect creation and now live in sin-filled world.
Not meaning to sound critical, but your having sponsored the website, I was expecting a little something more positive, respectful, or thoughtful. I had anticipated the various perspectives of your readers to have chimed in as well, but I got a nice offering, if not a bit facetious, from "Thing 2." I was hoping to have at gotten a bit of thought; because my impression is that your impression of the bible is that it was put together for no better purpose than - almost exactly what you said... And I would have thought that that almost sounds blasphemous.
I would think an all powerful and purposeful being wouldn't be so careless, especially with so much riding on his son's offering for future generations (or were they G_D's words?)
Maybe if you're not prepared or interested to answer, you could refer me to a different site (I haven't been very lucky in getting an answer myself). I’d be very appreciative. This is actually an important topic and I would imagine it has an answer somewhere.
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You are thinking along the same lines as I do. I have tried many times to honestly question and reason with the same issues you bring up. What happens is people feel threatened when logically questioned about their beliefs. They will tell you to look at the whole picture or something along those lines if you bring up certain iffy passages also. Basically it will all boil down to; “faith”. A cop-out if there ever was one!
Sorry if I was a bit facetious as “Thing 2” (couldn’t resist, figured I‘d play on your Dr. Seuss tag) but basically it was true. Yeah, I was “Thing 1” too.
Didn’t address your comment on my comment about “God‘s plan“.
You called it blasphemous, that’s ok by me. It’s very basic and could be elaborated on but I’ll stand by it. The God of the Bible is a jealous God, but since I believe the Bible was written by man (inspired by or not) and not God and is a collection of folklore and stories of ancient ways of life you can call me or my comment blasphemous all you want.
God's plan is to test our faith. Satan messed things up when he fell. Satan's plan is to deceive us as much as possible to prevent us from realizing Christianity.
Tom said: "God's plan is to test our faith."
To what end? He knows the results of the test.
"Satan messed things up when he fell."
But God knew from the beginning that Satan would fall, as He is omniscient, right? So, it would be impossible for Satan to mess up the plans of an omnipotent, omniscient being. Satan's fall must have been in God's plan, or else God would have stopped it from happening.
"Satan's plan is to deceive us as much as possible to prevent us from realizing Christianity."
And God allows it. Why? Like I said, testing our faith is pointelss, as He already knows the results.
Ive been asking myself the same questions, shygetz.
"The chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever." -Westminister Chatecism
In case anyone didn't get that, it means God created us to share heaven and his overflowing love with us, and to have us love him.
The purpose of having us on this earth is to give us a chance to repent of our sins (which were our fault, and are the only thing that is really our own) and to find God's love and be saved.
So God made us because He needs to be loved. Is He an omniscient, omnipotent diety or a four year old? He put us on this Earth to repent of sins that He created us prone to? He let human muddle around for over 100,000 years without divine guidance, and then decided enough is enough? He had to step in to show us how to repent of sins that we had no idea we were commiting? And the best way to do this was to stage a human sacrifice in primitive Palestine, which was so backward that the story became garbled into many competing versions, and still hasn't permeated the world? A story that has so many contradictions that people fight and die trying to figure out what God meant? And in all of His revelations, He tells us nothing factual about the world that wasn't commonly known by people of the time?
Coca-Cola has a better advertising strategy than God. The New York Times has a better record of factual accuracy. Shakespeare had a better grasp of the human condition. Kant had a better model of human morality. Einstein had a grander and more true vision of the nature of the universe.
Religion has more zealots, and a greater capability for ignoring evidence. Yay religion.
i have a question for you:
If god created humans, then why is there the possibility of life on other planets?
did we stuff up so badly he tried with another species on another planet and they stuffed up too?
Here's a thought: who created sin? God? Why would He, if He knew it would be the reason why most of mankind would go to hell because of it? That's like setting up an aquarium and buying a bunch of expensive nice fish, only to dump a pint of bleach in afterwards. Where's the logic?
Did Satan create it? I didn't know an angel, fallen or not, could create anything, let alone such a vile entity. Besides, I thought angels were just God's puppets, having no free will. So then how would one be able to rebel? Moreover, if humans arent able to be in direct contact with God because of our sin nature, what about the one that apparently started it all? How would lucifer have been able to withstand being obliterated by God's presence the second this "sin" entered him?
Did man create it? Obviously we can create physical things, like buildings, vehicles, machines, etc but from things that God created, but we are far from being able to create something like this evil....essence, if you will...
So is sin this evil entity that came outta nowhere, or is it slight traces of instincts that came from our possible ancestors: animals? Animals kill, steal, glutonously fill themselves with food, etc. Is it cause theyre evil, or is it cause their instincts tell them to defend their territory even if it means neutralizing the rival, or to get food to survive, even if it means stealing it from another animal or filling themselves up anytime they can to survive the winter months when food is scarce? Any christian, please feel free to debate me.
I realize this topic is 1 month and four days old. But I wanted to comment on this last post by Tom.
Tom you asked..."Here's a thought: who created sin?"
Tom, you believe that everything is relative...you say that there are no absolutes in the universe. (Are you absolutely sure of that? Is that not an absolute itself?)
So, prove to ME the existence of sin and evil. Is there such a thing? How can you identify sin and evil? By what process is Tom able to identify sin and evil?
You must have a universal absolute to do so. Without an absolute reference point for "good" (which only God can provide), no one can can identify what is good or evil. Thus without the existence of God, there is no "evil" or "good" in an absolute sense. Everything is relative. The problem of sin and evil does not negate the existence of God. It actually requires it.
Assuming that there is sin and evil...Where did it come from? Let's look at the details that you listed:
Sin and evil exist. (This contradicts your belief that there are no absolutes in the universe.)
In order to be God, God cannot be a Liar, which He would be if He created sin and evil. If God is good, as He calls Himself, then sin cannot have its root in God.
In order to be God, He had to create everything.
Man cannot create sin. He has no power to do so.
Tom, you are correct in saying the following:
"Why would He, if He(God) knew it (sin) would be the reason why most of mankind would go to hell because of it? That's like setting up an aquarium and buying a bunch of expensive nice fish, only to dump a pint of bleach in afterwards. Where's the logic?"
You are treating sin as if it were an entity. You came closer to the mark when you said the sin is almost...an essence.
Sin is not an entity, neither is it something that is created. Sin is existing apart from God. Sin is a state of being. A state of being cannot be created.
Evil arises from sin. Evil is anything that is done in sin. The moment Satan decided to challenge God, he entered into sin, or the state of being apart from God. Thus he became evil. Satan was cast from Heaven because God is Holy and cannot have sin in his presence. How can sin be in His Presence, when sin is actually existing apart from God?
Adam and Eve chose to exist apart from God the moment they decided to eat from the Tree. Thus, they fell into sin and became evil. Their descendants...(us!) are therefore evil as well, since we are all born into sin (existing apart from God.)
God is a gentleman. If you choose to exist apart from Him in this life, then He will not force you to exist for eternity in His Presence. Existing apart from God in this life is called sin. Existing apart from God for Eternity is called Hell.
God created Hell, not because He hates you, but because He is not going to force you to be with Him for Eternity if you have chosen that you want to spend Eternity apart from Him. Spending Eternity apart from God will be worse than your worst nightmare. It will be like to try to breath without air, to thirst for water and not drink any, to hunger for food and never eat, to want to have peace and yet always hearing the wailing and gnashing of teeth, to want to die and end the suffering...and to know it will last forever...for Eternity. Hell is horrible and I am horrified by the thought of anyone going there. I do not want anyone going to Hell.
Tom, it is your choice. When you die, you will either be with God, or apart from God. Heaven (existing with God) or Hell (existing without God) There is no other option. If you say, "I do not believe in God...He does not exist..." then you are either right, or you are wrong. If you are right, then there is nothing to worry about. If you are wrong...
It is a matter of belief. Do you believe that you are right, or do you believe that God and the Bible are right? Your eternal destiny is at stake. Think about it...what will happen after Tom dies?
“Without an absolute reference point for "good" (which only God can provide), no one can identify what is good or evil.”
This is not true, “good” has existed long before man created “God”. It is known as “The Golden Rule”.
“God is a gentleman.”
Who has killed millions, nice gentleman!
We were put on this earth to worship God. But after the sin in the Garden Of Eden. The world became messed up. .
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By saying that "man created “God”", you are saying that God does not exist, and that He is just a creation of man's imagination. God exists whether you believe in Him or not. For you to say that God does not exist means that you know everything there is to know in the Universe, an impossibility.
For example, suppose I said that there is no silver in South America. For me to be correct, I would have to know everything there is to know about South America(SA). I have to know what is inside every cave and every mountain side. I would need to know what is in the cabinets of every kitchen in every home in every city in every nation in SA. I have to know everything about everything about SA in order for me to say truthfully that there is no silver in SA.
In order for you to say God does not exist, you have to know everything about everything about the Universe, which is impossible. Even if you knew an amazing 1% of all the knowledge in the Universe, there may still be proof in the remaining 99% that God does exist.
The Golden Rule is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." By holding up the Golden Rule as "good," you are saying that we humans can live "good" lives if we live by the Golden Rule.
However, if we have ever lied, stolen, hated, or looked with lust at another person, then we have not loved those to whom we have lied to, stolen from, hated or looked with lust at. This means that you have violated the Golden Rule, which is one of God's commandments. Jesus said in John 3:36 that "...he that obeys not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Time does not erase sin. If you have ever even once violated the Golden Rule, you are guilty even now.
God is a holy God. If you were to die and face God right now, would He allow you into Heaven?
As to God killing millions of people...God has proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity. We will all die because we have broken God’s Law. Every one of us is waiting on death row. Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the Law of God. We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. How about you...Chocomel? What will happen to you when you stand before God's Throne on the Day of Judgement?
“By saying that "man created “God”", you are saying that God does not exist…”
No, actually what I’m saying is “God”, the Biblical God, the “God” I’m assuming you are referring to was created by man. That “God” is how your “God” was perceived by those ancient peoples. The Bible is just Folklore and views of ancient ways of life.
“…the Golden Rule, which is one of God's commandments.”
But the Golden Rule pre-dates your Bible. The Christians must have stolen the idea because it’s a good one. The Golden Rule (in some form) is in many religions (again some pre-dating Christianity), as well as humanism and atheism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_Reciprocity
As for your “God is a gentleman”
God is neither gentle - hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes and every other “act of God”, nor a man. And furthermore, to tie in with the “gentle” part, your Bible has “God” killing millions of people, many times for utterly ridiculous reasons.
“As to God killing millions of people...God has proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity. We will all die because we have broken God’s Law. Every one of us is waiting on death row. Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the Law of God.”
Ridiculous, I can almost see believing this IF I had asked to be born and was read the rules beforehand!
As for your preaching to me, you are basing it all on a book that was created by Christians (man), not by “God”.
You say that the Golden Rule pre-dates the Bible. But if God created the Universe, then He is the originator of the Golden Rule. By saying that the Golden Rule pre-dates the Bible and Christianity, you imply that God did not create the world, and if God did not create the world, He is a liar because He claims to be the Creator. And God is not God if He is a liar. Therefore, either God is wrong or you are a wrong. If God is wrong, then you have nothing to worry about, because He is non-existent. But if you are wrong, you have much to worry about. And you could be wrong.
BTW, you are correct that men wrote the Bible. When you write a letter, do you write the letter, or does the pen write the letter? Obviously you do, the pen is just the instrument you use.
God used men as instruments to write His "letter" to humanity. They ranged from kings to common fishermen, bu the 66 books of the Bible were all given by inspiration of God. Proof that the Bible is supernatural can be seen with a quick study of its prophecies. You owe it to yourself to inspect the evidence before you make a verdict.
Finally, you say:
"As for your preaching to me, you are basing it all on a book that was created by Christians (man), not by “God”.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I have put God's Promises to the test, and found them to hold true. You have not done so, and you cannot argue with my personal experience.
I am knew to this sight,and I was searching through the forums when I came across some of your thoughts on the origin of sin.
I'm not afraid to say that God created evil in some fashion.He did however create free will.Through free will we have choices,and whether right or wrong,they are our choices.In order to be just,God had to give man the free will to make choices,just as a father to a son.A father can steer his son in the right direction, but he must allow his son to make choices for good or for bad,otherwise he is raising a robot.
In the begining God told Adam and Eve that they were welcome to any tree in the Garden of Eden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.God gave them the choice.
When I was a child I went into a local store and stole a few things.On my way out,I was caught and was held accountable for my actions.Though the oppurtunity was provided,the store was not responsible for my poor choices.There were signs posted saying that stealing is a crime and that they would prosecute offenders.I knew better!
If there is no God,why should I be held responsible for anything I do,for who can tell me what is right from wrong?We would be no better than animals,going about our lives in vain.
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