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how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Most people don't believe that lake monsters like Nessie, Champ, or Ogopogo are plesiosaurs. This is mainly because plesiosaurs are thought to be marine reptiles, and how could a reptile survive in such frigid temperatures since it's cold-blooded?
I recently found on LiveScience.com that scientists discovered that saurichian dinosaurs, such as "T-rex" and velociraptors, had bird genomes in their DNA. This means they had some traits similar to birds, which can be seen in their fossils (the enlarged chest cavity and the limb structure). This got me thinking: can't this go the other way too? Couldn't other dinosaurs and prehistoric animals have had genomes similar to mammals, like plesiosaurs? Could some of it's traits have been similar to a seal, to be more specific (hey, they do have four flippers, and in some sea serpent sightings, a mane or hairs have been included in the description of the creatures)? Let's look at the facts for a second:1. the three lake monsters mentioned in the beginning live in cold temperatures. They must be able to sustain a constant body temperature (warm-blooded) to survive. 2. From the data I've seen, so far we've never found a fossilized plesiosaur nest site with eggs. Could they have possibly given live birth to only one pup at a time, like a seal? and last but not least, 3. Seals and plesiosaurs have similar spots in the food chain: they both eat fish and shellfish, and are preyed upon by larger marine animals. So, could plesiosaurs have in their DNA the traits to be warm-blooded, and give live birth to only one young (which is why we don't see several Champs or Nessies, since they wouldn't give birth to several through eggs)? I think it's a reasonable possibility.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Hello Tom!
Thank you for the well-thought post. A plesiosaur expert recently told me that plesiosaurs gave birth to live young, which supports your theory. Also, the Ogopogo is said to feed on fish, krill, and shrimp. Recent findings have lead paleontogists to believe that plesiosaurs were bottom-feeders.

-Dinoman Phil

Website: www.livingdinos.com

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

No problem, Phil. What you said about plesiosaurs being bottom-feeders would explain why these lake monsters aren't seen everyday. They probably act similar to whales, staying in deep parts most of the time and only coming up for air.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Well, seeing that they would have to come up for air, they would be seen every day, wouldn’t they?
Even if they could stay submerged for as long as some sea turtles (five hours) they would still have to come up for air a few times during daylight hours.

Just a thought.

Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Plesiosaurs would have surface everyday, but that doesn't mean they would be seen everyday. Look at the following points:

1.) There would have to be someone present at the surfacing time.

2.) They would have to be close enough to actually see the animal. Only the animal's head would be partly visible. And this could easily be mistaken for something else.

3.) There are hundreds of acounts from people who have seen plesiosaur-like monsters. The animals are seen alot, but no one hears about them.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Im not saying that they dont surface everyday. Im just saying some instances of them coming up for air could be less noticeable to people than other instances. For instance, a plesiosaur just sticking it's head out of the water would be less obvious than it's whole neck sticking out.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

“The animals are seen alot, but no one hears about them.”

THE Animals? I would say animals…or something, but not “the” if you are insinuating that the “The” is definitely a plesiosaur.
“Nessie”, “Champ” and others like them are big-time tourist attractions. People go to those places just to catch a glimpse of something. Sure they may just surface briefly and maybe only part of the head but people see what they want to see.

Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

We're not saying that it's a definite fact that these animals are plesiosaurs, Chocomel. Unless we capture one and identify it, it won't be a fact that these animals exist. However, there is enough eye-witness accounts (with photographic and video evidence to prove it wasnt a fabricated story. Granted, there are hoax pictures out there.) to suggest that maybe these animals still exist. I don't know if you heard about the video clip, but last year in February, some guy caught a rather amazing video clip of Champ. The clip was even on ABC News, and was analyzed by the FBI to see if it was real, and it was. I saw a still-image of the video footage, and it wasn't like any other animal I've seen.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

“We're not saying that it's a definite fact that these animals are plesiosaurs.”

Glad to hear that.

“…last year in February, some guy caught a rather amazing video clip of Champ.
The clip was even on ABC News, and was analyzed by the FBI to see if it was real, and it was.
I saw a still-image of the video footage, and it wasn't like any other animal I've seen.”

I’ve seen the video - like I said before; people see what they want to see. It was certainly something, but that is it…it’s something. ABC news showing it does not make it credible, remember CBS airing "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark”? And as far as the FBI analyzing the video goes; “Although two retired FBI forensic image analysts, who reviewed the tape, said it appears authentic and unmanipulated, one of them (Gerald Richards) added that "there's no place in there that I can actually see an animal or any other object on the surface." That tells me that this too is not convincing “evidence”.

Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Alright, you know what, it basically comes down to this- either you believe that there is a possibility that prehistoric marine animals such as plesiosaurs still exist, or you don't. There's no sense arguing about it, cause there's no right side. It isn't a fact that these things in these lakes are plesiosaurs, and it isn't a fact that they aren't. All we know is that there's some "unidentified swimming objects" in certain lakes around the world, and until we capture one and identify it, all we can do is make assumptions and theories as to what they are. My assumption is that they are plesiosaurs, and obviously I'm not the only one who believes that.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/champ/champ.htm
Can you see something from that video clip now (bottom right pic)?

Website: http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/champ/champ.htm

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

“My assumption is that they are plesiosaurs, and obviously I'm not the only one who believes that”

I understand, I think it would be awesome if we had definitive proof. I would love to believe that one of these “monsters” was a plesiosaur, or some long thought extinct animal/fish/whatever.
Let me ask you this; if all we have are grainy photos, iffy videos and stories - why exactly do you believe they are plesiosaurs?

“Can you see something from that video clip now (bottom right pic)?”

Oh yes, quite plainly…its two dark rounded objects! What I really like about the site where that picture came from is the basking shark carcass on the next page and they try to claim it’s a plesiosaur.

Re: Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

"Let me ask you this; if all we have are grainy photos, iffy videos and stories - why exactly do you believe they are plesiosaurs?"

Firstly there are two genuine photographs of these creatures with their neck out of the water. The animals have long thin necks, which also verifed by eyewitness. What mammal has a long, snake-like neck? Why are there "sea-serpents" and not sea-mammals"?

"Oh yes, quite plainly…its two dark rounded objects! What I really like about the site where that picture came from is the basking shark carcass on the next page and they try to claim it’s a plesiosaur."

The film proved that there is an unknown animal in the lake. If you want know what the rest of creature looks like, asked those who have seen it!
Just because the site mentions a missidentification doesn't mean that all the info on the site is false!

How you found this site: livingdinos.com

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

“Firstly there are two genuine photographs…”
Ok fair enough, do you have a link or something?
“… the rest of creature looks like, asked those who have seen it!”

Right, people see what they wish to see, what they think they see, and sometimes they even make the stories up. If what they are seeing is a giant eel and they are at Loc Ness, they will assume it’s “Nessie”. They have preconceived ideas.

”Just because the site mentions a missidentification doesn't mean that all the info on the site is false.”

Correct, but it doesn’t lend much credence to it either.

Re: Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

"Ok fair enough, do you have a link or something?"

One is the Sandra Mansi photograph, which can be seen on almost any champ website. The other photograph can't be seen on the internet, but in the book, "In Search of Ogogogo."

You didn't answer the question the snake-like charateristics (spell?)

How you found this site: livingdinos.com

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Thanks Phillip for the resources; I’ve seen the Mansi photo before - it’s pretty well known. Although it looks cool and her story seems (for the most part) legit. I have to wonder why she took only one picture, waited four years and can’t provide a negative. I have to remain unconvinced, I like this link on the subject; http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-07/monster.html
As far as the “In Search of Ogopogo” I’ll have to look for that. I just feel that not enough goes into trying to disprove most of these sightings (only to help prove them) that I can’t say that these things (pictures and stories) are fact.

As far as your “snake-like characteristics” and “sea serpent” questions go, I actually thought it was rhetorical.
“Sea serpents” probably started many hundreds of years ago and I’m guessing it’s a mixture of myths/legends/and sightings of things like; giant squids, strange types of sharks, giant eels, oarfish, decomposing carcasses, delirious sea going folk etc.
“Snake-like characteristics”; eel, large fish, some of the things listed above, who knows? As far as the neck thing, what do you want me to say? I don’t know of any conclusive evidence that would lead me to believe any picture that is not a hoax, is a plesiosaur. But even though skeptical, I still think it would be cool to find something in these waters.

Now let me ask you my unanswered question (slightly rephrased); If all we have are grainy photos (two ‘genuine’), iffy videos and stories - why exactly do you believe they are plesiosaurs?

Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Well it isn't just the "grainy photos" and video clips that have me believing that they still exist. It's the fact that Nessie and Champ have both been sighted since early times. Nessie has been sighted since 565 AD, and Champ has been sighted ever since Indians inhabited the New York/Vermont area. The Indians actually celebrated the existence of a creature in Lake Champlain during that time. So it's hard to just write these off as hoaxes. I have more to say, but I got to go right now. Busy day today.

Website: http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/champ/champ.htm

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Re: Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Well said! By the way, the world's leading cryptozoologist Karl Shuker believes in living plesiosaurs.

How you found this site: livingdinos.com

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Okay, I'm back. Thanks for the info, Phil. That definitely supports this since he's like a head researcher. Well, back to my last message. So there's a good chance that these lake monsters are not hoaxes, since they've been seen since early times. Now obviously, even though we've never observed a prehistoric animal like a plesiosaur in captivity, we can still make a safe assumption that no single animal, prehistoric or modern day animal, can live thousands of years. So the Nessie or Champ we're seeing today most likely isn't the same one Indians and Knights were seeing thousands of years ago...this is why I think there's more than one of these animals in these lakes inhabited by lake monsters. Unless they reproduce asexually, which is highly unlikely, there has to be another one in the lakes to keep the Nessie, Champ, and Ogopogo "bloodline" going, since these animals are still being seen today. In fact, I recall seeing an article where a person actually saw two "Ogopogos" swimming along side eachother. I'll try to find that article again later. What I think is that these modern day lakes (Loch Ness, Lake Champlain, etc) were actually bays at one time, since the two lakes I just mentioned lie on fault lines. Plesiosaurs would have probably stayed in these bays to somewhat try to evade some of they're predators (whales like the sperm whale, pliosaurs like Kronosaurus, possibly Megalodons too) that lived in deeper waters. As time went by, the tectonic plates shifted, which eventually "locked" a small group of plesiosaurs in these massive lakes. They're food was still available in they're new environment (fish and possibly shellfish), just without the natural predators, making it the perfect habitat. That's my guess. As far as why we don't see more than one "Nessie" or "Champ", maybe the animal seen in a sighting is actually one of them that is looking out to see if it's safe for the other 1 or 2 to surface. There are species of animals that do behave like this, where they have a lookout individual to spot predators and potential threats. And besides, sightings of Champ and Nessie do vary in size sometimes. Whether it's the person's mistake in reporting the size of the lake monster in the sighting or not, who's to say that that was the same individual "monster" that was involved in the last recorded sighting? As far as the thought of lake monsters being giant eels or water snakes- highly unlikely. Snakes and eels swim by moving their body side-to-side, not up and down like the typical sea serpent picture. It would be impossible for any snake or eel to leave parts of it's body arched out of the water, to look like a hump. It's just physically impossible. However, if this long, neck like appendage was attached to a larger object (a body, 4 flippers, and a tail) that could be able to stay in a certain area under the water, it would be possible. Look at it this way- since we don't have long necks for an example, I'll use an arm. If youre swimming in water, you should be able to lift your hand and some of your arm out of the water. However, if it was just your arm in the water, it wouldnt be able to do that, even if it was able to move on it's own. See the point I'm trying to make?

Website: http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/champ/champ.htm

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Re: Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

I enjoyed reading your post. Would you be interested in writing a article for my website? Perhaps you could use your post as a draft and then add some references and expand a bit.

How you found this site: livingdinos.com

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Sure, as long as I receive the credit.

Website: http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/champ/champ.htm

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Re: Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

That would be fine.

How you found this site: livingdinos.com

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Okay cool, I'll start working on it. It might take a little while though, since I'm a full-time college student and I have a part-time job.

Website: http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/champ/champ.htm

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

hi. Did you post that article yet?

Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

just saw the article. cool Phil

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Ha!
Hopefully one of you saw the documentary on Champ last night on the history channel. There is now evidence that something uses echolocation in Lake Champlain! It obviously isn't a fish, snake, eel....and certainly not a log. The only thing left to look at is larger aquatic animals, and the only one in Lake Champlain is Champ...or should I say, Champs. Also on the documentary, an eye-witness claimed to see TWO different plesiosaur-like animals out of the water behind her house, which is on Lake Champlain. She saw the first one at night, which was large and a brownish color. Then a few weeks later, she saw a different one at night-time too. This one, she claims, was slightly smaller and a greenish color. This may be two genders of the same species, possibly the one attracted to the other's scent due to mating season or something. If all of this is true, then it supports my theory: echolocation is a trait that only warm-blooded animals have, suggesting plesiosaurs have mammalian traits. There is more than one "Champ", so the species can reproduce and keep the bloodline going. And if what the eye-witness says is true, then Champ is definitely nothing but a plesiosaur.
They also had a documentary on Nessie. Even though it wasnt as interesting as Champ, it did oppose the thought of the Loch Ness monster being some eel, snake, or large fish. Then what else is it (rhetorical)?

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

One more thing I forgot to mention. They also showed how plesiosaurs did in fact live in cold waters. Fossils of plesiosaurs are found in Australia. During the time these animals flourished, Australia was apparently covered by frigid waters, indicating that these animals were able to live in cold water.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Well if they made a documentary about it - then it must be real!

In any case, I hope that there will be some concrete evidence someday soon.

Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Yeah I agree. I'm planning a roadtrip with my friends to go to Lake Champlain, since it's only about 6 hours away. Hopefully we'll see something. Even if we don't, it seems like a cool resort area.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Keep me updated!

-Phillip

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Will do, Phil.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Do you think plesiosaurs are millions of years old or thousands of years old? I think they are only thousands of years old. They are part of Creation. Scientists do not know how old the bones are, they are just guessing. I also believe there is no such thing as 'evolution'. Plesiosaurs could not possibly change into another species. When you look at fossils, you don't see any changes. It's 100% plesiosaur. I am a HUGE believer in living dinosaurs.

How you found this site: cryptozoology.com

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

It's debatable how old plesiosaurs and other dinosaurs are from a Christian's point of few. Some Christians believe the days of creation were periods of time, some believe they were literal days. Therefore, the dinosaurs could be either thousands or millions of years old. No one knows for certain. I don't believe in evolution either, but I do believe species can slightly adapt to environments and have been doing so. For example, I highly doubt 2-7 of every specie of land and flying animal living today can fit in the Ark, given the dimensions of the vessel in the Bible. So, for example, instead of the hundreds of species of hawks and other types of birds we have today, there were only about one or two species back then. We see species adapt to environments today. However, I don't believe that like a reptile can turn into a mammal, or an invertebrate into a fish. I also believe in SOME living dinosaurs. I don't believe any land dinos were able to make it til today, but aquatic and flying dinosaurs, in my opinion, would probably have a better chance of surviving til today.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

kendal said: >Do you think plesiosaurs are millions of years old or thousands of years old? I think they are only thousands of years old. They are part of Creation. Scientists do not know how old the bones are, they are just guessing.

Guessing? GUESSING!?! We used the same type of "guessing" that made the medicine and vaccines that keep you alive, that invented and designed the computer you're using, and that quite possibly provides the electricity you use to power the computer that you use to write your uneducated statement. If you think science is just guesswork, then kindly stop using our stuff.

"I also believe there is no such thing as 'evolution'. Plesiosaurs could not possibly change into another species. When you look at fossils, you don't see any changes. It's 100% plesiosaur."

Fortunately, your disbelief in evolution is not as directly harmful as a comparable disbelief in gravity would be, although if it were Nature would suffer fewer fools. Much like gravity, evolution does not require your belief; it will chug along regardless. Do you mean fossils are not like transformers, in that I can't take a pleisiosaur bone and change it to a saurupod bone, complete with a neat sound effect? This is true, and silly. If you mean that the fossil record is the same, no matter what geological period you look at, this is patently and obviously false, and I am surprised that Phillip hasn't corrected your misconception. We definitely DO see a change in species over time. We HAVE seen one species evolve into another, both in the wild and in the lab. The fossil record has several very detailed time-dependent transitions from one gross form to another (e.g. whales). Sorry this doesn't fit into your preconceived world-view, but you have to learn to cope.

Tom, Australia was never covered by waters, frigid or otherwise, during the age of the plesiosaurs. It was part of the East Gondwana supercontinent. Loch Ness was never a bay; it was gouged by a glacier about 100K years ago. Same with Lake Champlain. Birds use echolocation, not just mammals (although it is more refined in mammals). You're wrong about a snake being unable to push a hump out of the water, as anyone who has seen a water snake swim can tell you. Pleisiosaurs predate mammals, so the DNA particular to mammals could not be present in plesiosaurs. These facts are all easily accessible via the internet; avail yourself of them.

It is possible that plesiosaurs could have evolved a heat-management system given the millions of years involved that was distinct from mammal system, but you still have a question of how they got into lakes that were dug by glaciers a mere 100K years ago.

Before you go off into flights of fanciful speculation about HOW plesiosaurs managed to survive this long in frigid waters, you must first show that they have. After you have bagged a plesiosaur, or found a carcass washed on the shore, or clear video of one, then you can start to figure out how they got there and just how related they are to prehistoric plesiosaurs. First comes the horse, then comes the cart.

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Shygetz, you sound like a skeptic. I will never believe in evolution again. Animals don't evolve. They just can't. There are many animals that were thought extinct until they were found alive. Take the coelocanth for example. It was thought to have been extinct for millions of years until one was caught in 1938. Same goes for dinosaurs and marine reptiles. There are likely small populations of dinos and marine reptiles in REMOTE areas away from people.

How you found this site: cryptozoology.com

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

"Tom, Australia was never covered by waters, frigid or otherwise, during the age of the plesiosaurs."
Well that's what I heard on the show on the history channel. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5220784.stm) last 2 paragraphs. I was close enough.

"Loch Ness was never a bay; it was gouged by a glacier about 100K years ago."
Explain the fossilized marine seashells scientists dredged up during the investigation on the documentary. Even if a glacier was the cause, it doesnt mean a small group couldnt find their way in there via inlets after the lake formed.

"Same with Lake Champlain."
Nope. Although it might not have been a bay, it had access to the ocean since prehistoric times. Bay, inlet: all the same to a plesiosaur trying to evade predators. There was an excavation site there of a fossilized beluga whale and theres several fossilized coral reefs in the area of Lake Champlain (http://www.lakechamplaincommittee.org/lake/natural.html). Yes, I'm aware that there was a glacier that further carved out the lake. Doesnt mean the animals couldnt have relocated and over time they eventually found their way back in there.

"Birds use echolocation, not just mammals (although it is more refined in mammals)."
Yeah, the swiftlets and oilbirds. Two species of cavebirds, compared to several different species of mammals. Also, I'd think if a plesiosaur were to have inhereted the ability of echolocation, it would most likely have inhereted it from mammalian traits than avian traits. Now if it was related to, say, a velociraptor, it would be a different story.

"You're wrong about a snake being unable to push a hump out of the water, as anyone who has seen a water snake swim can tell you."
Really now? I had 8 water snakes as pets (Ive bred snakes), which all had a swimming pool sized (to them)container of water, and I've never seen any perform such behavior. In addition, most of them I caught while they were swimming, and the most I've seen them do is stick their heads about an inch or two out of the water. So please, send me a picture of one doing this acrobatic stunt and then I'll be convinced. Oh, and snakes, water or not, do not go into 42 degree water or they'll either die of shock or become severely ill.

"Pleisiosaurs predate mammals, so the DNA particular to mammals could not be present in plesiosaurs. These facts are all easily accessible via the internet; avail yourself of them."
I somewhat lean toward the belief of creationism. However, in your evolution point of view, maybe this animal was the first of what would later become aquatic mammals, and had the trait they would later possess.

"Before you go off into flights of fanciful speculation..."
Speculation.... isn't that how a hypothesis is formed? Hunches, speculations, guesses, etc? If you're a scientist, then why are you against it?

"...you must first show that they have. After you have bagged a plesiosaur, or found a carcass washed on the shore, or clear video of one, then you can start to figure out how they got there and just how related they are to prehistoric plesiosaurs."
I wish it were that easy, but unfortunately these are elusive animals. But now that you mention "carcass", on that documentary, they did find something on the bottom of Loch Ness that kind of resembles a plesiosaur carcass (long neck, limbs, etc.). I myself am skeptical about this, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.
There have been so many sightings of Nessie, Champ, and Ogopogo being "four flippered, long necked monsters", even since early times. The sightings of early settlers in the area should be the most convincing, since they would have no idea as to what a plesiosaur even was, let alone looked like. And yet there they are, describing reptilian aquatic beasts with long necks. Oh and lets not nitpick about certain minor descriptions of the "monsters" that somehow disproves them of being plesiosaurs, like humps or it's ability to raise it's neck up that for some reason, seems impossible to scientists that a plesiosaur can do such a thing. For example, look at a typical marine dolphin and then look at any freshwater dolphin (http://www.baiji.org/in-depth/freshwater-dolphins/species-guide.html). There are some differences in appearance, but theyre still dolphins. Maybe if this is a plesiosaur, it too changed slightly due to it's new environment. And if the coelacanth is too small of an example to show how prehistoric animals or mythological animals can come about to be proven to exist, then I'll use a bigger one: the giant squid. This animal was thought to be nothing but myth. We just started capturing this animal on film a few years ago.
"First comes the horse, then comes the cart."
Not a very scientific way of looking at it. We made an observation: there is something unknown living in these lakes. We've made our educated guesses: plesiosaur, basilosaurus, whale, some giant eel or snake, etc. now it's time to experiment: fully investigate and see

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Tom,
Just a little bit about your water snake observations;
“the most I've seen them do is stick their heads about an inch or two out of the water. So please, send me a picture of one doing this acrobatic stunt and then I'll be convinced.”

No picture yet, but how is this for a source; North Carolina A&T – “They use the water's surface tension to glide and can lift 1/4 to 1/3 of their body length off of the water surface.”

“Oh, and snakes, water or not, do not go into 42 degree water or they'll either die of shock or become severely ill.”

Ok, but one could still fall in the water, and perhaps try to keep as much of its body out of the cold water as possible, see above.

Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

"No picture yet, but how is this for a source; North Carolina A&T – “They use the water's surface tension to glide and can lift 1/4 to 1/3 of their body length off of the water surface.”"
Yeah, when theyre trying to get out of the water and onto a drooping branch near the water. Not when theyre in the middle of a lake. There would be no stimulus to cause such behavior. This still doesnt explain the humps. And can I get a link for that North Carolina A&T statement? All I can find is online general information about the university.

"Ok, but one could still fall in the water, and perhaps try to keep as much of its body out of the cold water as possible, see above."
Yes, well it would be getting out of the water as fast as possible, would not be in the middle of the body of water, and in the extremely rare instance that it might survive the exposure to frigid temperatures, would not be swimming routinely in the water.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Looks like this post is stale, but have you seen this 2009 video at this website--

http://champmonster.com/

I'm no expert-- not even a scientist-- so I may not know anything, but a few thoughts and observations I'd like to share if anyone's interested 2 years later--

Most all the lakes these creatures are reported to have been seen in are very deep freshwater lakes in temperate climates with definite winter freezes.

So-- first-- do they have to get through the ice to get air? I'd really like to know. Is this an issue? If they can't get through the ice, is it possible that each of these lakes have an underground / underwater cave that these creatures get into, where there is fresh air available? At Loch Ness I would particularly find this to be possible. (And for that matter, having never been to Scotland, I'm not positive that Loch Ness does freeze over each year, but I'm guessing it does, or at least used to before they started using it for regular barge traffic last century).

Secondly, can anyone answer this-- how do fish survive the frigid arctic waters, and the waters of frozen over lakes in the far north? Fish are cold-blooded animals. Frogs and other amphibians hibernate and actually freeze and thaw out in the spring in some cases. So-- could plesiosaurs not have some way of dealing with cold water without being warm blooded?

Another question-- since these lakes are extremely deep-- just how cold is the water in the bottom of the lake? I don't know just how this works-- I do know that if you dig down into the earth, the inside of the earth is a constant temperature under the crust all year round-- generally about 50 degrees Fehrenheit or so. When water freezes, it freezes from the top down. Is all the water in a deep lake the same temperature in wintertime? If the lake is 800 feet deep, and the weather outside is 0 degrees Fehrenheit for six weeks straight (with the normal variation above and below that; I grew up in New England, so I know the climate), what is the temperature at the bottom of the lake, and at the top of the lake right under the ice? Any ideas about this?

And furthermore, from looking at Plesiosaur fossils, do we have any proof that they are not mammals? They are not in the same taxonic family as any known living creature-- and the order of Mamalia has many varied creatures in it, including whales, seals, manatees, platypuses, elephants, sloths, marsupials, giraffes, hippos, and so on. From what we know of Plesiosaurs they may have had many of the same features as those creatures so named. Otherwise, Plesiosaurs and dinosaurs (and pterodactyls, and so on) may have also been in their own order-- a new and unknown "sixth" order in the phylum Chordata. These could very well be warm-blooded, they may or may not be monotremes, they may or may not nurse their young, they may or may not have hair or feathery coverings, they could have sonar or infrared abilities, they might have internal organ arrangements we've never observed or studied before, and so on.

I really do want to see one captured or cornered to be documented.

If it were up to me, I would be in favor of a tranquilizing and retrieval session, where the creature is tranquilized (hopefully while in shallower water), brought to the surface, taken to shore or onto a large boat, studied carefully, radio-tagged, well documented by as many witnesses as possible, and carefully released back into the lake (or loch, if you prefer! ) to help preserve the species. We would need to not do anything that might endanger its life or health (even the tranquilizer dart would be a risk-- how do we know it wouldn't be allergic to it?). Also, since, as Tom (I think) pointed out, they need to breed to maintain the species, so we would need to be sure to release it back into its environment before any harm befall it. We would not know how many of them there were in the lake, so every single one is necessary to maintain the gene pool.

If it was radio tagged, then it could be tracked from boats, etc. and studied more in the wild. Its habits could be learned, and it may just lead us to its mate (and entire clan, we might hope). If it was known that there was a sizeable population, then one might be able to be captured on a more permanent basis and studied in captivity.

I hope this dream comes true.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

I just took a look at the video, Jim. It's hard to say what it is. Obviously it's something living though, since it's creating a wake.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

I've been hearing all of this about champ(s) being a plesiosaur(s), but i remember in Dinos : Dead or alive
as being a nothosaur, what do you think they are?

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

Personally, I think it's something we've never seen before. Both nothosaurs and plesiosaurs are supposedly reptiles, but scientists recorded sonar from an unidentified animal in Lake Champlain. No reptile is able to emit sonar, and nothing else living in that lake has the ability. I believe that it is what we call a "plesiosaur", but in the event that we do capture one (which I don't want to happen and would rather leave it untouched), I think our evolutionary branches of these creatures are going to have to be re-drawn.

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Re: how plesiosaurs could survive cold temperatures

I saw one last summer at night by the campfire, almost plucked my wife. It got spooked at last second . Got me thinking about migration, Saw one today just before sundown, it was thirty degrees or so today. Must be warm blooded and no migration necessary. Big Water, farms and lots of forest around here in northern Michigan.

I thought they were nocturnal,...... no just smart.

confuzio says ..... poopooers never look up

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