John if you run in the pen...by Eric's Definition you're a foxhunter too..., but we both know that ain't right. I, like you, am just a lowly deer hunter that runs in the pen some and attends a few hunts each year, but that does not make me a foxhunter. I will never be in the same class as Poon, Wilson, or the Hoggard boys. I imagine there are guys out west that Eric insult's by calling them foxhunters when there are in fact real coyote hunters.

FIRST OFF, I'M NOT MAD, THIS IS A SIMPLE DISAGREEMENT/DEBATE BETWEEN US AND THIS IS ALL IN FUN, BUT IT IS MY HONEST OPINION... WHICH I THOUGHT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THIS SITE.

OK, I SEE THAT YOU'RE JUST A BIT THICK HEADED BUT YOU DO UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'RE COMING FROM, A LITTLE BIT. AND I SAY "WE" AS IF I STILL HAVE DOGS. I DO NOT OWN A FOXHOUND NOW, I SOLD THEM IN JANUARY. IT TAKES AN AWFUL LOT OF TIME HUNTING AND SCOUTING SEVERAL DAYS A WEEK, GAS $ DRIVING BACK AND FORTH. BUT THATS WHAT IT TAKES TO BE SUCCESSFUL AT IT, NOT TO MENTION THE DOG SENSE AND FOX SENSE "YOU" HAVE TO OBTAIN TO TRAIN YOUR DOGS WHAT TO DO, WHEN TO DO IT, AND WHEN NOT TO DO IT. ROADS, TRAFFIC AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, TIME IS THE KEY FACTOR I SOLD OUT. I SAW A DIFFERENCE IN MY YOUNG DOGS PERFORMANCE WHEN I STOPPED HUNTING 3 DAYS A WEEK TO ONLY ONE OR TWO. A GOOD YOUNG PROSPECT WAS "SHUCK'N THE CORN" AT 16 MONTHS OLD. THE LAST YEAR I HUNTED I COULDNT BRING OUT OF THEM IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME. IT SEEMED TO TAKE QUITE A BIT MORE, AND THEY STILL HAD 50+ FOXES IN THEIR MOUTH IN '07. NOT ENOUGH RUNNING TIME TO MAKE THEM REALLY EXCEL. SURE, I COULD'VE KEPT THEM, CARRIED THEM DOWN TO ONE OF THE LOCAL FOX PENS AND RAN THEM ONE NIGHT A WEEK, BUT THATS TOO EASY, IT REALLY ISNT HUNTING. HECK MY WIFE COULD'VE DONE THAT. BUT THAT WASNT A BIG ENOUGH CHALLENGE. SO, YES, I GAVE UP OUTSIDE "FOXHUNTING" OF 12 YEARS FOR FAMILY TIME WITH TWIN GIRLS BECAUSE IT WAS TOO HARD TO DO WITH EVERYTHING ELSE GOING ON IN MY LIFE. I'VE EARNED THE RIGHT TO CALL MYSELF A FOXHUNTER. NOT JUST ANYBODY CAN DO IT. I'D ALMOST BET IF YOU WERE TO HAVE TAKEN MY HOUNDS HUNTING, YOU WOULDNT HAVE PICKED UP HALF THE FOXES... FOR NUMEROUS REASONS. ITS ALOT MORE THAN JUST THE DOGS. BUT I'VE ALWAYS SAID, I'M NOT SWITCHING TO PEN RUNNING WHEN OUTSIDE HUNTING IS OVER, AND IT IS OVER FOR ME. NOW YOU ON THE OTHER HAND, HAVE EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE A GOOD HOUNDSMAN, A "COYOTE" HUNTER, AND FIELD TRIALER. YOU MIGHT RUN A FOX OR TWO, BUT WHAT IS THE GAME YOU RUN 90% OF THE TIME?
COYOTES WOULD BE THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. I DONT HAVE A CLUE WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO CATCH A COYOTE ON A CONSISTANT BASIS. I HAVE CAUGHT SOME, I THOUGHT THEY WERE RUNNING AND EDUCATED GRAY. IT SURE DIDNT TAKE A WHOLE LOT TO APPREHEND HIM THATS FOR SURE BECAUSE BELIEVE ME, MY DOGS WERE FAR FROM THE BEST!
I WOULD NOT CLAIM TO BE A COYOTE HUNTER AND WOULD EXPECT SOMEONE FROM OUT WEST WHO HUNTS THEM ON THE OUTSIDE ON A DAILY BASIS TO BE A LITTLE AGGRAVATED IF I CLAIMED TO BE A COYOTE HUNTER. THE TERM AMERICAN FOXHOUND IS THE ONLY THING THAT RELATES US, WHICH IS A GOOD THING. KYLE STOTESBURY SAID IT RIGHT A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, "CALLING COYOTE HUNTING FOXHUNTING, IS THE SAME AS CALLING COON HUNTING BEAR HUNTING, ALL BECAUSE OF THE SAME BREED OF DOGS. EVEN THOUGH IT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT. I RESPECT WHAT YOU DO, ITS NOT MY THING. BUT HUNTING, TRAILING, AND RUNNING A FOX TO DEATH IS, AND THATS NOT WHAT YOUR DOING. YOU COYOTE HUNTING ON THE OUTSIDE WITH THE OCCASIONAL RED FOX RACE, AND COYOTE RUNNING ON THE INSIDE, WITH THE OCCASIONAL RED FOX RACE.
WELL I'M DONE FOR NOW. FYI I HAVE SWITCHED TO BROKE RABBIT BEAGLES, WHICH I AM TRYING TO HUNT THE SAME WAY I FOXHUNTED... FOR THE MEAT. AND I AM NOT AS SUCCESSFUL. A NOTCH OR TWO UNDER MY BELT IS ALL. BUT HAVING FUN WITH THE CHALLENGE AND CAN RUN 7 DAYS A WEEK AT THE HOUSE. SO IT WONT BE LONG BEFORE I'LL BE ON TOP.....HOPEFULLY
HAPPY RUNNING, HUNTING

we call it running dogs when we go to the pen

Scott I appreciate the association with the names you mentioned above me in your post but I have a long way to go before I will ever have a pack of foxdogs that would be able to be mentioned with the likes of the Poor Sams, Wilson Winslows,Poons, and the others you mentioned. Those guys earned the right to be mentioned as some of the best that have put down behind a grey. I have had the chance to hunt with Poor Sam on several occasions before he sold out but none of most of the rest. He was one of the best houndsmen I have ever been around. I am almost in the position where I will be able to hunt three days minimum a week soon. As Rooster said that is what it takes if you want to able to catch greys on a regular basis. My drive is the love of running game to catch and raising hounds that have what it takes to do so. There is just nothing like it and not many races you will ever here sound like it either when they are right up his hind parts bout to sink tooth in him.Hope to see you at a deer trial this year to meet you face to face. I think you and the poet would have a good weekly poetry battle if ya started, your pretty good.

Russell, I am more than a little thick-headed. For the most part, we are jockeying words and like that great Canadian songwriter Hank Snow and great outside grey foxhunter, Chris Barber, both advise -- I'm moving on.
I understand the time, effort and money you put into getting a pack of hounds that would do what you wanted.
Do you REALLY think that if you switched to pen running and your goal was to beat the Hoehners, Sonny, Ducote, JW McGee, the Huffmans, the Corbett's and the rest -- you could do it with any LESS work, ability or funds?
If your goal was to win outside trials, would it be completely effortless and painless to out-do John Fields, the Purvises, Barefoots and the rest?
Do you really believe it's harder to catch gray fox consistently than reds or coyotes?
We all have our preferences, abilities and time allotments. I'm sure lots of pen runners wouldn't consider me or my hounds representatives of that branch of foxhunting either.
I understand that by foxhunting, you mean outside gray foxcatchers. There, however, has always been a generic term that we all referred ourselves as -- foxhunters.
I might not meet your standards; you might not meet mine. You can pick your friends but you can't pick your family.
Good luck with the beagles. They are amazing little hounds, not my thing but I admire what they can do.
And, like Forrest Gump -- that's all I have to say about that.

First off I am not a Fox Hunter. Please do not call me one. I am a Coyote hunter that uses American Fox Hounds. I have the write to be called a Coyote Hunter, because I have hunted on the outside fo 39 years, and my hounds have pulled down over a thousand Coyotes, Yes over a thousand, over the 39 years I have averaged 40 a year. I had my best year in 1980 I got 69 that year. I am sure that my hounds would look silly trying to run a gray fox. I have tried some fox dogs here on coyotes and none of them worked out, it takes a totaly differant dog and style of hunting, I was glad to see that Rooster and Kyle have the sence to know the differance. I would say Eric has the write to be called a coyote hunter for all the years he hunted on the ouside. This is my opinion and dose not count for much, if anything. Hope you all have good running where ever you run.

I NEVER MET WILSON IN PERSON, BUT ONE OF THE GUYS I USED TO HUNT WITH KNEW HIM GOOD, I ALWAYS HEARD HE WAS A DARN GOOD HOUNDSMAN AND FOXHUNTER.

HE ALSO USED TO START HIS FOXHOUNDS ON DEER IN THAT PEN, THEN BREAK THE ONES WORTHY OF KEEPING OFF. HE SAID "IF THEY CANT PUNISH A DEER, WHY DO I EVEN WANT TO CARRY THEM FOXHUNTING?" AND AS MUCH AS I HATE TO ADMIT IT, HE'S GOT A POINT.

My old thick lips will drive a red fox to the ground in 20 minutes to be sure!!!!Am I a foxhunter???

Look forward to meeting you too Danny. I won't be battling with the poet though...he's too witty for me!

He dont know the poet like we do, does he Woodduck?