Should hunts post judges scores or not post them?

Me personally would love to see every hunt post judges scores. It is very interesting to see if the hound that's kicking your tail in speed and drive is doing it by leading every pack or just being in a lot of packs.
I know one of the best times I have had at a hunt this year was a money hunt where we judged our own hounds and all scores where posted. I know I picked 5 hounds I thought where strong 4 of the 5 placed in the top 7 the other was 40 points out.

BUCKET I SUPPORT THIS 100% AS LONG AS THE JUDGES NUMBERS AE POSTED ALONG WITH EM , IF THERE ISN'T ANY THING WRONG WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO LOOSE AND IF THERE IS NOTHING WRONG LETS PUT EM OUT THERE AND CLEAN IT UP--DAVID BAILEY

I agree 110 percent whats to hide

Post it all nothing to hide like David said it's nothing to hide

Playing devil's advocate. The other way of looking at it:
With the way people act "crazy" in todays society, a judge who witnesses a hound hunting or trailing may be inclined to NOT give the dog what it earned for fear of the grief that he/she would receive for "giving the hunt to hound #XXX".
How many times have you heard people fussing because hound XXX won the hunt on day 3 because it received a hunting score or a trailing score? Imagine how mad "they" are when this happens. Imagine if you were the guy they were mad at and you knew that they knew you did it. Imagine you are judging a hunt in which you know several people running hounds in the hunt but you do not know the hounds by sight. At the end of the 3 days you give 5 hunting scores and they end up being to dogs that are owned by people you know well strictly by chance (since you did not know the dogs). Based on how you have seen people act at field trials, what do you think they would be saying about the scores you gave???? As a judge, you are to give the dog what it earns. As a dog owner you are to accept the scores of a judge. No matter how you look at it, there has to be a level of trust on both sides. No "rule" will make it where trust is not needed. The only way around it would be to randomly put judges in groups of 3 which would be impossible.
Please understand that I do not personally feel this way. Simply throwing out the other side of the discussion.

Ok. Good. Funny thing is, you never see guys on here pushing this issue that judge a lot. Guys like Bill McGee, Jeff Brinchek, Highball, myself. Not to put myself in these guys regard. I admire these guys. They judge a lot, they see how the system works and trust it. Then they go run and place plenty and dont ***** and moan about this kind of stuff. If you are wanting to just see how your dog scores. Hallelujah. But if you are wanting to see them because you think something is too hide. ****. Go judge 8 or 10 3 days a year and you will probably change your minds and be more trusting.
Come on guys

Man Im sure glad I dont think like a lot of people. I go to trials and have a really good time. It must suck to go to trials and be so distrusting. I hope one day yall get to enjoy trialing as much as I do.

By the way. Great point Robbie. And congrats to you and the girls placing a dog the other day.

If you don't TRUST the people you are asking to judge , why would even ask the person to judge?Not agreeing or disagreeing either way with topic, just asking

I'll play "devils advocate" to Robbie Nalley's post!

Most folks that do a significant amount of "three day" hunts, cannot, nor will not, go to a hunt where they do not know a number of the judges, and judges as well know the "hunters"! Why, because many times they judge hunts together over the years; sometimes one will run in a hunt that the other is judging. It is inevitable that this occurs. The field trialing community is large, but at the same time, it is small, in and of the fact that for the reasons above, hunters and judges get to know one another.

As for posting scores, I personally have nothing to hide when judging. I judge the "hounds", not the "owners", and will score whatever I see according to the rules. Good or bad. To post them is fine, nothing to hide, but the majority of the judges and HOH's have my trust that they know what they are doing in the field, and judge according to the rules in the rule book. That said, I like many others, would like to see the work my hound has done in the field.

As for the hunting & trailing...to NOT give them is just as much cheating as anything else. Why, because the hound is not being given credit for its' work in the field. And to not acknowledge and reward the hounds work, is the same as cheating, because a judge is not judging, in accordance with the rules.
In most cases, the MORE hunting scores given to hounds for their work in the field, will diminish the impact of one or two hunting scores. I have seen hunts where a single hunting or trailing score will impact the outcome, and I've seen hunts where there were numerous hunting and trailing scores and had negligible impact on the outcome. With regard to the Nationals rules, the change implemented several years ago, somewhat negated the stigma of the hunting/trailing score.

The end result is; at a field trail the judges are trying to determine the MOST DESERVING hound at that hunt. Hopefully to help and enhance and improve the betterment of the breed.

In closing.....judge what you see occur in the field, in accordance with the rules, not one's individual interpretation, do the best you can, and let the outcome be determined the work of the hounds in the field.

And if a hunter, have enough respect for the judges & MOH to know that they are doing their best to determine the best hound at the trial.

Lastly, go have a good time, display good sportsmanship, and humility, whether winning or losing. And when you cease to enjoy yourself and the field trial, sell your hounds and get out, go play golf, or fish, or whatever you enjoy, because without the enjoyment, you have nothing!!

Allan Bishop
(Jabber Jaw)

I don't know if people can take what they see with posting scores. Both parti****nts and judges. We live in an "entitlement" society and it has reared its ugly head in our sport.

Most of what Allan said makes too much sense.

Thanks Brian. I am very fortunate that both my girls love being around and working dogs.
Good points made. Obviously there are more ways to look at things than one!!!!!!
One thing that is evident when looking at this topic, no matter from which angle, is TRUST. Either faith in or lack of, which is a shame either way.

That would be a good rule change.My Son and myself judge most of the local Three days. Let hunters see whats going on,Also another change to me make all Hunters keep there hounds where all hounds are kenneled not take them home and bring a fresh hound back the last day.It does happen. Good Hunting Larry

I'm going to have to back Robbie Nalley here. It doesn't matter to me either way. If they post scores or not I will still be feild trialing like I have been since day one.

But if you load your hounds at home heading to a trial and you have one doubt in your mind about what the outcome of the hunt is going to be then why even load them? It all goes back to the word TRUST which I think in this sport is plainly becoming nothing but a word to some people. If you don't TRUST the guys who are busting there tail for you for three days then I don't see why you would parti****te in this sport. It all goes back to sportsmanship. If you can't handle loosing then maybe this just isn't for you.

Just my opinion on this. But like I say either way I will hunt if you post them or not.

When I go to judge a trial I go to hunt. I go by which ever rule book the hunt is running under. For 5 or 4 hours I record every thing I see the field of hounds doing. I don't care if people see my scores. Heck put a go -pro on me and see what I see. with the go-pro thing you would forget about the hunt and laugh you butt off at me.I myself get mad when I see the scores of the other judges that have scored the high hounds and it makes me want to root hog on them. Scratch me for babbling but crap post them If you have a question ask it. We are suppose to better hounds by field trialing.Have fun at a hunt and if you don't know I'm loving every second I get to look at your hounds good or bad.

Is it possible this topic is being blown out of proportion and 99.99% of judges are good men donating their time to help hunters have a field trial?

Richy I agree with your comment . So what's to hide?

There is nothing hid. Where would some stop with things good for the individual and not the good of the hunt as a whole?How can a good honest hustling judge defend himself for turning in many hard worked for scores,to the good of the trial as a whole I will say, when an envying hunter has less tallied for his hound?Why pressure these valuable judges who only wish to benefit the hunters?We ask much of them for what they receive.They deserve respect and have no reason to prove their innocence .This of course is one man's opinion.

Richy, Garret and to the positive posters. Great job.
Its a sad day in fox hound field trialing for all you other cats.
If yall honestly believe that posting the speed and drive scores of 10 hounds is whats keeping judges honest then you truly dont have a clue.
"Something to hide"-----WOW!!!

You people have lost your minds.
Again, I say it, I would hate to go to a field trial or anything else in life with some of you peoples mind set. Hey Bucket, how about the judges score cards on all those bench wins. Surely those were all crooked. I didnt see any paperwork on those filled out showing exact deductions. Come on man, surely you dont think this way about field judges.

I promise if yall will lose the thought process that everyone is out to get you then you will have a great time. Come join the rest of us and have some fun.

Their is always room to cheat. If some one is dishonest they are going to cheat

Chris,in reading your original topic post agin I dnt have a problem with breaking down crossing scores to see were a hound is in the pack. In some pen hunts I suppose with the many times they're seen that could be interesting. Possibly for outside trials were hunting and trailing is still a necessity along with the speed and drive the crossing place is not as big an issue.That said the name of the judge wouldn't have to be known if the knowledge of the points is the issue.Like you said if cheating is going on its going to go on.And creating doubt when a hard working, bush bustin judge turns in a good many scores can still be avoided along with rumors that can damage a good man's re****tion.

Brian it appears I over looked your post. I would love to see bench show give you a score card. I know their are bench champions that do not deserve their title but this is due to the Association having judges that could not tell you what the national rule book stated for points. I have watched shows that dogs won me and the judge talked after the show when I ask what made him pick the dog he did. He told me it had a better tail. When I ask him if he knew how many points the tail was he looked at me funny and said no. I ask him what hound had better muscle he said the 2 place dog. I would love to see them give a point card that would keep the Association from having some one that did not have a clue what the standard is from judging. The biggest laugh at a show I have ever seen was when a judge put Mike up 9th now this is a 96 to 97 point hound that when on to win the 4 major shows including the Nationals under 4 different judges. The only time he was ever beat was that hunt he has also won bench shows in the Akc against some of the best show hounds in the nation. I would of paid to see the score cards at that show. But this is what happens when you get ppl to judge a show that have never won a show or know what it takes to win. Or they judge who is holding the lead not the hound.

Well I hope that situation did not detract from your hounds worth. I understand that not all show judges are versed in the points system.
However, I disagree that there are champions that dont deserve their titles and just dont believe that someone in that situation maliciously cheated. Were they possibly not as educated as you and did the best they could. I think that is more likely. The word JUDGE sums it all up. It is what is seen in their eyes and by god thats good enough for me. I sure hope you get mad at one of them ol good looking hounds soon and keep your ol buddy here in mind.HaHaHa

That is very true. I never let a judges opinion effect the way I feel about my hounds. I have been blessed to watch and learn from the best around. I would like to see it to where you had to have experience showing to judge a show. Some one who would have knowledge about the points. When I put on the Lake Marion on I ask Austin Powell to do the show this was the 1St show he had judged but he had shown dogs his whole life. This was one of the best judged shows I have ever watched. But that's the difference in having some one who loves to work a hound and knows what one should look like compared to some one who could not tell you where to look for the rules.

I agree with Brian Haas. It's hard enough to get judges to begin with. If u think your getting cheated then don't run. Go judge. Every sport has sore losers and when u wanna see who did and did not sore what dog then it sounds like to me you are a sore loser. Honestly in every sport u don't win em all but you can't blame the umpire or referee for your loss..... It's not abt hiding something it's abt thank you for coming out here three of your personal days. If the judges had a salary then u could ask for more from them.

Great post Trey!

I'm with u Trey if u going to say somebody cheating at every hunt then go judge some so u can see or stay home or go run somewhere else

You boys and ladies are an absolute asset to what we do and are why I love to go. Keep going, judging, winning, losing and most of all making good lifelong friends.
Hope to see you all judging at the next one I attend. I am proud to judge with you or have you judge my hounds. And I dont need an explanation of my scores.
Thank you to the positive people!!!!!!!!!!

I agree wid Brian I enjoy going to hear the great sound of the race and for all the trash talkin as for as the judges they do a great job I use to think a lot went on at some hunts so I started to judge a few boy did my mind change all kinds of situations can happen some u would never think of so before u think a judge is cheating u might want to do his job a couple of times

I enjoy judging as much as running if not more due to the amount of money I save. But why not post the judges scores what will it hurt? It seams their only a few that are against posting scores if your not hiding any thing.

I agree with u stump I think everybody needs to face the challenges and judge so they can see how the dogs that win does it but I think u got some hunters that think the more money u spend on a dog the better it is that's not true just cause u buy a dog for 2000 dollars don't mean it's better than the next mans 200 dollar dog is and far as the hunting and trailing goes a dog is no better than they nose is I'm yet to understand why some hunters wants a dog that cant hunt trail and jump it's on game and run it like a dog is surpose to do rather than having to run it by eye sight or get in the road. Just a thought

Ok Chris... I got you a solution. U start a series of hunts. You line up the judges. You post their scores if you want and you and who else agrees will be satisfied. bc let me throw this at you....When you post scores your basically saying that the master of hounds is not needed. He can tell if someone is cheating by looking at the scores. So are u calling the master of hounds a cheater? I would hope not.

Lol Tray I never said anything about the master of hounds not being needed. Just if you don't have anything to hide post the scores. It only seams their a few that are apposed to posting scorers. If you want to have a good time go to a hunt where they post the scores that way when you leave and you won or lost their is not a question in your mind.

Ok you are right. You got it all figured out. I wish they would have figured it out 50 years ago that posting scores is the best way and we wouldn't be suffering all this time. Goodluck with your theory. I hope fox hunting changes so it will be FUN!!!!!! Have a good one

Jeffrey johnson do you receive the chase? If so look on the front cover and when you see the 2014 AA (f) champion Daniels lemon drop then you will know. :)

10-4, I don't keep up with who's who.

Happy hunting fellows

I don't comment on here very much, but this seemed like a good one to chime in on. I have been on both sides judging and running and for the most part would say most of what goes on is honest. A good master and a couple experienced judges can normally pick out a cheater. We should put a little more trust in our judges and if we don't have trust in them then they should not be on the judges list. Most judges just judge what they see and sometimes it hurts hunters feelings. If all hunters would spend a little more time watching their hounds and a little less time socializing, then they probably would not be so shocked when they look at the scoreboard. Personally I could care less if someone saw the scores I turned in when I judge, but I will say it is a shame that it would have to come to that.

Sounds good to me Chris. Whether running or judging, it doesn't matter. I am going to attend the hunts that I want to go to and if asked to judge, I will. Posting scores does not bother me at all. I do not understand why people are upset about posting scores. Good or bad, it is all in the dog.

Bucket look what you've got started........ I have to say I really liked the masters program system used for the Chadd Scott benefit hunt. It is very rewarding so hunters could go back see where there hounds ran in the field. I don't think posting scores can actually show if someone is cheating. As a judge you reward a hound for what you see him doing in the field. By posting the scores i feel it's would be a great privilege to see your hounds scores. Also I have to if you reward a hound for what he's doing then i would'nt be afraid for anyone to see what I rewarded the hound for. Just a thought......

The posting of scores was never intended as a tool to catch cheaters but unfortunately that is what the ones that sit around at every field trial griping about how ol so and so wins( cheats) have turned it into. I know you guys say I dont care if you post scores, well just wait until you get some great scores you are proud you worked hard to get and these people jump on you and start accusing you of cheating. Some of the very ones posting on here I have personally heard ranting about how ol so and so is cheating every time they go to a field trial. **** shame. I have heard you put down young men who work their tales off with there hounds and accuse them of cheating. **** shame.
Get out of the sport if thats what you think of it and we wont miss you a bit.
I agree post the scores and then enforce this part. First person that any of us hear falsely degrading a judge or fellow hunter is banned for life from all trials.
Posting of scores is no problem, its the uneducated responses that come with them that are the big problem.

Oh and by the way as one of my mentors just advised me, how are you going to post scores at a national hunt?
The program WONT print them and for good reason.
We could go back and get the judges to do them by hand for you and everyone sit around til about 8:00pm waiting on awards.
TRUST guys TRUST.

Brian I knew it wouldn't work at a national hunt. I was just stating it was a good system. If you noticed non of my post are referring to anyone specific. This is a discussion board. That was my opinion. It's just a discussion board. Mr Johnson really good post agree that judges have to be thick skinned.

Alright. My last post. How does posting scores on speed and drive, hunting, scratching or anything else you want to post them on keep a "rogue judge" as they were just caled in line. How does posting the top 10 speed and drive keep that person from not scratching a hound that he should scratch. How does it keep him from giving a hunting score to a hound thats just trotting by.
Good god guys. I dont know who these characters are yall have been judging with but I sure am glad I been judging with the ones I have. I trust the guys and gals judging.
Gonna say it for the last time here. Thank god I dont go to field trials with that attitude. Must be why I have so much fun doing it.
Happy hunting to all.

By the way, Thanks Jeffrey, Andrew,Stump,Trigger,Garrett,Terrell,Robbie,Larry,Allan,Trey,Kylie,Chris,Sandy Mill and Steven Howard on some great post. Hope to see you guys at a hunt soon and we will sit around and talk about some of them good hounds you guys are holding.
Guys a man has to earn trust and if an association or one of my friends has enough confidence to INVITE that person to judge, he or she has EARNED my TRUST.
The next hunt you are at- show the ones that choose to sit around and make these horrible comments about our judges, turn around walk away and don't have anything to do with them. They will get the message.

I knew you lied, when you said that was your last post earlier....

I feel that posting scores will NOT cure or identify dishonest judges, too many loop holes. The only reason that I would want to see the scores is to see how my hounds score the last hour from an endurance standpoint. Typically the cream rises to the top, hard hounds with huge hearts and desire. But, in large pens such as Manning, it really depends on how many judges they have and how many of them hustle to get scores, and I can see many situations and areas that dogs will not get seen. I have never been to Manning when Richard didn't have game or running, but have received a dot for a score from time to time, but didn't accuse anyone of cheating. All you can do is to go to hunts and support associations that you feel is on the up and up and honest, or don't go.Yes, I feel there are some that are dishonest, but never had absolutely any proof, other than rumor, so that I could prove it or protest. This computer is one reason the numbers attending hunts continue to decline, there are some real specimens posting childish, stupid, ridiculous posts on here. What example is that setting for young hunters just starting out in this sport? The decline in the numbers showing up at hunts isn't related to the economy, its related to nuts on this computer. I feel better now.

Interesting reads here. I told some young hunters the other day pick the hunts you believe are straight up and go that's what I do. For the record I could care less if they post scores or not when they do I rarely look if I do it is to see how many 1st place crossings a dog got. I used put on some hunts and I really respect the judges, it's a thankless job, but we need them got have them, I appreciate them cause I prefer to run.

I can't wait for people start back calling me a cheater or saying judges pumping my hounds, that means I'm back into good hounds again and I'm burn up the field trial circuit, keeping the cry babies crying....

take Brian Haas advice go to hunts and have fun because it really is, the picking, cutting up, man its fun, and when u got real good hounds it's even more fun competing....headed to 2 day at CM next week, gonna be small hunt but a ton fun....


lastly remember every one got an opinion and everyone got a xxxxxxx it's ok for people disagree, it's not right or wrong is different opinions

don't believe nothing you hear and only half of what u see....

be good
Lenny

Brian I agree with you. I Never really cared much about seeing the judges scores. As me not looking at it from a cheating perspective. After using the program at the chadd Scott benefit & posting the judges scores it was very interesting to see where the hounds where running. With any sport you're always gonna have someone complaining. Just with posting judges scores I reviewed them & reliazied there was dog that placed lower but had more points than dog that won the hunt. I didn't know who's dog it was but without posting of judges scores I would have never realized it. I don't even know if the owner realized it. But if it was my hound I would have been just as proud if won the hunt. Like I said I really never cared if judges score where posted or not but after viewing recent hunt man I think hunters should be able to see there hounds scores. My opinion is not looking at from trying to catch cheating. I had a really good friend accused of cheating a while back & like I say a judge is supposed to score what they see. I feel if all scores were posted that would've been the end of accusations. In the fox hunting industry there is no judge who can come judge who doesn't know any hunter that's running hounds in the hunt it's impossible. Without judges you can't have a hunt. I feel if posting judges scores will not stop the crying because you will have complainers with anything you do but it will let everyone know where hounds running. it's great asset to be able to view your hounds score. Also I realize back in old days didn't show score but also back in days we didn't have alphas or garmins to use either. So if you look at it from that point the sport is changing.

I see it both ways with the posting of scores. Knowing that the scores will be posted could keep a rogue judge in line. On the other hand, knowing that scores will be posted, might keep a honest judge from giving that deserved hunting score, because they might worry about what the parti****nts think.

To be a judge, you have to have thick skin. As parti****nts, all we can ask for is to judge by the rule book, for a judge not to go into a hunt with a pre-determined mind set that since they don't like rule so and so, they are not going to abide by it, it could be hunting, fail to hark, or any barking fault, for example.

It is impossible to not have some sort of relationship while you are judging with some of the parti****nts. You might be related, you might own a stud dog that they bred too, you might have sold them a puppy, you might be best friends since 2nd grade, you might be hunting buddies that you pleasure hunt with every week, you may have sold them a hound that is in the hunt, you might be the biggest fan of that particular breeding, or you might even be enemies. Regardless, a judge has to keep "relationships" separate. Parti****nts need to keep this in mind and just because a hound places, doesn't automatically mean it placed because of a relationship. Relationships need to stay outside the wire.

Let's be honest, posting scores is all about keeping judges honest. For the most part, I think 95% plus, of the judges are honest, (will not give a false score) but I think within these same 95%, the percentage falls drastically when it comes to following the rule book. Scoring is one thing, scratching is another. I think they are still honest, but give the hounds far too much rope. Then you have the other 5%, (probably closer to 1-2%) With these, I do think cheerleading goes on, I do think a hound that is scored by these cheerleaders does not have to do much to get that hunting score, whereas under normal cir***stances, the same judge might have not have rewarded a different hound. I do think that some cheeerleaders might scratch a hound for a barking fault, but the "relationship" hound might get the benefit of the doubt. In some cases, it might not be flat out cheating, but it also could be given the benefit because of the relationship. In other cases, it might be flat out cheating.

I have seen judges after a hunt, run up to the winner, real excited, and tell them how they scored their hound a hunting score. Might as well run up there with their pom pom. A judge must contain themselves until a proper time to talk with the winner. It doesn't go over real well with the others that see such.

A good hunter knows what they got before they leave the house, they also know there might be better hounds there that weekend too. It should be all about promoting the breed.

Therefore, for the most part, I don't think parti****nts or judges can handle the posting of scores.

After reading all the comments it looks like their is a strong line drawn in the sand. With the original topic being should they post judges scores? Posting judges scores would catch some one cheating if they done the same thing every hunt. Like scoring dog X for hunting on the third day at every hunt. With this being said tell me how it would hurt to show the scores? But then again if you have something to hide that would explain the old saying birds of a feather flock together.

Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one. But I agree with the last statement 100%, happy hunting.

Looks like either field trials are full of out law judges and championships that are tainted or full of hunters who think its this way.This sport has gone down hill in the last 20 years.Class is a thing of the past for the most part.