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    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    man..the diffrence in hounds today...how many of you feed 10 hounds that dont bark and pay a pen owner 50 dollars a week to run your hounds...good reason to stay around the fire barrel !

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    i gotta say it....i questioned a master of hounds about this at a major hunt,i'd caught the dog running silent ahead 2 days in a row at a major hunt...and it wasnt looking at the game...just being silent to avoid competition...and his responce was that we were allready scratching too many for babbling..he wasnt gonna speak on this one....when the number came up in the judges meeting..i stopped and ask if anyone else had wittnessed it...and they hadnt...good sign i was in the wrong place !

    the reason for this opinion when judging if you listen to the hounds running the game you know the hounds mouth thats in front...when judging in a large crowd of dogs..when you hear a dog hit it ahead this is a good scoring point...and you get the hounds that have been consistantly running the game...what has grabed it is up to the next judge....when you're playing a pack for a crossing...and see the game....20 seconds later a hound not barking...20 seconds later the pack comes not really wanting to open because they are running covered tracks....
    with that said..if he's toting the front he should let everyonr know it...just my opinion...because he's interfiering with the RACE !

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Good example Mr. Barrow, in my opinion you hit the nail on the head!

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    So Mr Barrow -

    About the dog that puts in ahead of the pack that comes across you not getting his score. Not the dog running the road that puts in at or near you that you see , the dog that comes out of the woods, running the game out of the woods - you're going to score him sometimes and not score him sometimes ? Depending on if and when you were able to hear him ? Is there a range limit ? Does he have to run him for 50 yards ? 100 ? A half mile ?

    The problem is you don't know what that dog did before he approached you.

    He could have been coming thru the pack the last mile and a half, and when the fox dodged so did he and grabbed the front and is now on point. Good dogs don't bark behind - they find the front and go with it , inside and outside of the wire.

    If he is too roady he'll take himself out of the scoring , the last judge the group came by wouldn't have scored him - but if he comes by you , then you are to score him - whether you like it or not. If he holds it to the next judge then he'll score again. If he's back out in the road , he won't.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Hoss, I cant tell you what not to score in a field trial, but a dog that dont bark in a fox race is as bad as one that barks behind. Thats why we like to breed for dogs with good exciting mouths that call the calvery when they get it. HERE HE IS!! HERE HE IS!! Versus one that runs away with the game not saying a word.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    We all know that on the outside we cull dogs that run up ahead and don't bark. They string the pack out and ruin the race. No matter what your game is? Deer, Fox, Yotes, we want them to call when they have the game right. The judges have a job to do and its a hard one. A hound consistently in the front not barking should be scratched...What if every dog was silent? How much fun would that be to listen to? That's just my opinion....

    Roy Jarman / New River Kennels NC....

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Thank you Bubba and Roy that's what I'm talking about. I was beginning to think I was the only one that thought that way! If mine is looking at him they better be roaring like a freight train and then go quiet all the sudden with some "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as the Bible says. A silent hound running the front will ruin a race in a pen or on the outside just the same.

    What seems to be the question at hand that has sprung up on the side is the issue of how much a hound uses his mouth. Sure there are dogs that don't give as much mouth at certain times and they are called tight mouthed hounds or sometimes called hot nosed hounds. Whether you like that or not all depends on the person feeding the dog. I like a dog that uses his mouth well and at the right times. But some hounds that swing or play the pack to get out in front will go silent just to try and put their mouth on the game. But the simple fact is that tight mouth hound is not helping the other hounds in the pack get up and put pressure on the game. If he's only barking occasionally or not at all he's only pushing the game further ahead without pulling the pack of dogs up with him. To me that interfering or hurting the chase. Personally I want the track running dog with a calling mouth that can run the front over any tight mouthed dog any day of the week.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Where are all of you guys at that you are witnessing so many dogs "running up front" or "running alone" and so far out front of a pack that they are not harking? I don't think it's that common or typical so I want to come witness and bring some to run to measure mine against. Either I can cull back or I'll buy yours. What are you guys referring to? Puppy's?

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Mr. Field trialer and judge, when that hound grabs the front he better be telling the world that he's got it or he is NOT a fox hound

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    i'm with u on that one mr clif. the way i look at it if u can't beat them join them your money spends the same.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    when im judging and i hear a hound thats been pulling the front...and i listen for it..i'm out to score him...not the roadrunners that swing and cut up and down the roads all day...a good example why i dont care for this bs anymore....i promise you if im judging i will do my best to give the best dog credit...and i wont be judging with sunday loafers on...

    if you care to discuss it more call me 252/217/7837....theres no need for any negative posts on this site...call me

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    i bet most of the ones talking about cutting an swing hounds have hounds that do it to get where there going an if u come run where i run an he don't cut an swing i will pay whatever u price him/her for.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    So when I'm judging and see a hound running in the woods or down the road not barking I need to score him. Benefit of doubt he running game.
    when a hound is trailing he barks and stops and barks again. How do you know he jumped or track is hotter he barks more. Come on people when the rule says running common sense tells you its about barking in the track

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    If a hound isn't barking he is no good in any kind of race! He hurts it! One that isn't tounging pursuing the game is just playing off of the crowd that is after him.




    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    JMO this is getting blown out of proportion. go back and read what Clif said. Most crossings in a field trail are given crossing a road. A lot of dogs stop barking when they cross and pick up on the other side. A judge can not pick and choose which dogs he wants to score and not score in a crossing. You did not see what was happening in the woods. You must score what you see with short time you have. This is why there is a rule book to go by not everyones opinion of. As far as swinging hounds would you score a hound you see come up the road cut in ahead of the pack then cross on the game first and score him. Is that fair to the hounds that have been running it to you the last 500 yards?

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    It IS in the National BYLAWS Running Rules and Regulations - Article VIII ( i )

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    OLD SCHOOL ON THE OUTSIDE CALLED FOR A DOG TO LEAD THE PACK AND BARK FOR HIS OWNER TO KNOW WHICH DOG WAS IN FRONT.SWITCH TO THE PEN MAY REQUIRE A DOG TO LEAVE HIS TRACK AND SHUT UP TO GET TO THE FRONT.I PERSONALLY CAN FIND NO EXCUSE FOR A DOG TO LEAVE WHAT HE IS DOING TO SHORTCUT TO THE FRONT ALTHOUGH THIS MIGHT GET POINTS.RULES THAT GO AWAY FROM THE ORIGINAL TYPE OF TOP HOUND WILL SLOWLY PRODUCE INFERIOR DOGS..JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION.HAPPY HUNTING.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    MOST HOUNDS RUN IN THE PEN ARE NOT GOOD OUTSIDE DOGS & MOST HOUNDS RUN ON OUTSIDE ARE NOT GOOD FILED TRIAL DOGS.UNDERSTAND THAT I SAID "MOST"!!!

    I'VE BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE A COUPLE THAT COULD DO BOTH.IF A HOUND DON'T SHUT UP & GET UP IN A PEN YOU GONNA FIND YOUR SELF BEHIND A LOT.IF A DOG IS RUNNING A PIECE OF GAME IN A SPEED & DRIVE HUNT YOU SHOULD SCORE IT.I PERFER ONE TO BE BARKING,BUT BY NO MEANS AM I GONNA TURN DOWN THE LEAD DOG.THERE ARE A LOT OF OPINIONS ON THIS & THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE WORLD GO AROUND.IF YALL HAVE DOGS RUNNING OUT FROM YALLS PACK & MESSING YOUR RACES UP PLEASE LET ME HAVE EM.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Well half of the responses above are not addressing Teresa's original question but interjecting unrelated situational cir***stances. Teresa asked 1. Do you score a dog for running a track if it is not barking?

    The key words in her question were "running a track". First off, Bill and I responded in regards to scoring hounds in an actual crossing and we were implying that there were more than 1 hound in the crossing and the pack was within seconds behind the game. In other words, we said yes, because in the situation we presented; the hounds were "running the track". As mentioned earlier, in the heat of the moment, most judges (including me) cannot distinguish whether every single hound in the pack is harking at the instant moment the hounds cross the road/path while trying to read and call out or write down each of the hounds numbers. Second, animals as well as humans, actually travel and move throughout the woods via the path of least resistance. In other words, in a pen, game such as foxes/coyotes typically travel and run on "game" trails created by constant use, and so hounds may move about to get from point A to point B, by traveling the same paths but in those situations, they are not running a track. I agree, all hounds should be harking while in a chase behind game, but the fact is, hounds will periodically stop harking momentarilly for numerous reasons such as: over running the track, while sight chasing, getting their attention interrupted such as sight of a judge, etc. Not every dog harks every time his/her foot hits the ground so how can a judge, who will only see a hound for a split second or so, determine if a hound is harking during chase if they are not alone. The question was not asked if the hound was any good, but whether they should be scored "while running a track". To me the answer is yes, score the hounds under two situations. 1) Score every hound in order as they cross the path because if the hound is mixed within a pack of hounds, whom are "running the track", you as a judge can’t distinguish between who is and isn’t barking and 2) if the hound is running alone, and within eyesight (several feet or seconds) behind the game, score the hound because, whether you personally like it or not, or whether he suits your tastes and fits your hunting style, the fact is he is "running the track". So, for other situations such as traveling through the woods, traveling down a road, crossing a path/road where a piece of game "slipped" across minutes ahead of the hound, I say no, don't score, because the hound is NOT "running a track". You should not score a hound for coincidentally crossing a road or traveling through the woods on a game trail, just because you saw a piece of game travel the same path moments earlier. In those situations, the hound is most likely not barking because he/she isn’t truly “running the track” of a piece of game.
    And, I think most of the "true" experienced houndsmen, who do volunteer their time to judge, understand and are very well capable of distinguishing the differnce between when a hound that is "running the track' and one that is merely traveling to get from point A to point B.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt


    Great explanation Clif........score hounds as per the "RULE BOOK"!

    Thanks,

    Allan Bishop
    (Jabber Jaw)

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Mr.Beverly tell where I can find that in writing. I don't mind doing some research.And guys,I have heard what you are saying that you think a tight mouth dog is ruining the race because the other dogs can't hear him to pack to the race but I personaly do not want a pack dog.

    Teresa

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Teresa excuse me ... However sounds like to me ur trying to stir the pot jus alil.. I did say excuse me ma'am... No one wants a pack dog but every one of us have them.. If u have a full pen of tight lipped hounds an cutting an swinging type of dog ur not goin to listen to much when u go to the pen... I personally hunt on the outside an N the pen an I as well want the front end of a race however not goin to happen every time u turn loose.. I dont mind a swinging type hound as long as he can hold it when he gets it an have a mouth on him where u can say that's ole so an so... I want him to be able to hunt him an trail him an run him like he is supposed to be ran.. If he looses it put his head down an hunt him back up of he runs over the track I want him to quit tonguing an look for it all dogs aren't barn burners I want a pack of complete hounds...u can take pen dogs an run on the outside if its a gamey hound not staying in the rd listening for a race cuz he goin to get wiped out on The tar rd... An again no hard feelings a real good conversation piece..i enjoy reading all the post... An back to the scoring on a dog not barken on the track if its a 3 or 4 dog race that front dog not barking none of the dogs n the race will get scored jus like missing the front dog in my opinion.. Now a 7-10 dog race first dog barking every dog in order til I miss one will be scored as cliff said u could never tell what dog is barking an not barking n a second or two..

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    A dog that won't bark regardless of seeing game or not is useless !! Puts the other hounds @ a extreme disadvantage !!! Glad I have read this !!! Really opened my eyes up on what some folks think !!! Wow !!!! Outside hunters have a pack of hounds and field trialers are in search of an individual !! Not saying one is right or the other is wrong !!! But it just widens the gap between the two !! Two sprinters of equal talent line up to race !! The starter fires !! One sprinter is quiet the other sings the star spangled banner !!!who wins !!!yep !!!

    Later !!!
    MLM

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    MLM-I hear ya-that's why Otis Redding, Delbert McClinton, and Patsy Cline got gold records.........

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    It blows my mind that someone being out run by ( and because ) the hound way out in front is not barking would want that hound to be scored, win the hunt, get a CH in front of its name and then breed to it to produce more of the same! What a detriment to the breed. Certainly NOT a caracterisic of an ideal field champion! If a judge witnesses a hound running a track and it is evident that said hound is not giving tongue it MUST be brought up for discussion in the judges meeting!
    FIELD TRIAL RULES and REGULATIONS, ARTICLE VIII, JUDGING IN THE FIELD ( i ) In conjunction with the rules specifically mentioned herein, a hound may be eliminated for any misbehavior in the field when in the opinion of the judges such misbehavior is a fault which would mar the characteristics of an ideal field champion or which might become detrimental to the chase.)
    I think both requirements are met to scratch the hound.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Thank you Blaine. People need to have more common sense.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    I have read every comment on this post for the last week and i can honestly say ive learned alot from the majority of them. Some post however make me wounder but everyone is allowed to voice their opition so with that being seid i will voice mine. To me the ideal hound would be one who doesnt bark back in the pack but shuts up and pulls up to the front however he can cut swing or fly and when he gets the front he then lets everyone and his brother know hes got the front and your not getting it back. However 1st is 1st barking or not and i will score the hounds as they cross unless the hound is noticbly effecting the preformance of other dogs in the hunt.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Other hounds can't pull up on a hound it can't hear.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Any good hound that is sight chasing will shut up and pull up. When Bolt was running in the Olympics you never seen him talk when he was running. You take a judge that's sitting back watching the crossing with binoculars their is no way you can tell what is not barking. Or if your running up on the crossing trying to catch it and make sure that every dog got what he earned.

    And hear is a question for everyone that says they should be scratched then should you scratch a hound that's coming behind on the track trying to catch up would you then want to scratch him for running covered tracks.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    We all know a hound sight chasing sometimes wont bark
    we also know a hound running back in a pack may not bark. All that is fine. But a hound leading a race not looking at the game needs to be giving tongue. Its not a fault in the rule book but a hound like that is no good



    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Christian music I thought u would kno a dog better than that can't believe ur fingers let u type sumthin the ignorant comparing hounds to humans is crazy we don't bark lol most good dogs do...an if the dog is running behind barken he should be scratched in my opinion he needs to shut up an get up he ain't catching up if still barking behind.... No hard feelings all N fun...

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    To each their own. But any one that has every spent much time judging or running will know a that some hounds will shut up to pull up . Plain and simple a hound should not be faulted for trying to get where we want them.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Ms.Teresa in my opinion to the failing to hark question before i would scratch a hound for that i would find out what the pack was chasing and if it was game other than what the hound should be chasing then that hound should not be scratched in my opinion.and in the case of the hound that is the first hound in the chase barking or not he gets a 1st place s/d score unless he is running alone and then i turn it in running alone,i always write it down what happens out there and bring it up to the master of hounds in the judges room.i hope i was of some help with your question.

    Re: Scoring dogs during a hunt

    Shutting up an getting up is... He gets throwed outa a race an he is swinging cuttin to get back to the front never said NE thing bout scratching the hounds but if he shutting up to get there an never say a word when he has it was good is he.... An if he is barking behind he is contempt of running in the back a cheerleader...