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    Re: Discussion time.

    If you think of a judge enough to ask him to judge and spend his time, why should you question his entegrity? Don't know that it is as much cheating judges as it cry baby sore a++ losers. A good Master can handle any bad apples. You asked for my opinion.

    Re: Discussion time.

    I agree, it would be very interesting to see who scores what hound and also you can see what judges are getting out there hustling, trying to make a winner, and who's there just to be there. Just my opinion. thanks!

    Re: Discussion time.

    Agree totally with Lenny's statement. Could not be explained any better!

    Re: Discussion time.

    this is a touchy subject for some....

    Me personally - why not? if everything is on the up and up why not post everything for everyone to see? When a ref calls a foul or a ump calls someone out we all know who did it, there nothing to hide hell they do replay on live TV and override refs/umps

    I think it brings more integrity to it, I asked several well know judges that are on top of the list of the big hunts and they are 100% for it so if the top judges are for it also I say it is a no brainer....

    I think all hunts should be reviewed also again same thinking why not let it be looked at and reviewed.....

    At the end of the day we all want to pick the best hound to win - The end

    my opinion - not right or wrong

    see u soon...
    Lenny

    Re: Discussion time.

    I agree with Lenny. If I'm going to spend $200 plus at trials to "run with the best" I want to see what each judge scored. Just my 2cents worth.

    Re: Discussion time.

    I agree with Wayne Proffitt, even if you posted scores there would still be people accusing of cheating no matter what. Its the nature of competition, nobody likes getting beat! However as a judge I am not against posting scores and would gladly do it, but dont know that it would help or it may intensify the cheating accusations.

    Re: Discussion time.

    Now I am not terribly opposed to the hunters seeing my scores BUT how about holding the hunters to a higher standerds just like the judges?Test each of the top ten dogs for PEDs.Maybe put video cameras in all the holding areas.Why is it the only problem in field trialing is the judges?I for one am sick and tired of every hunter blaming why their dog didn't place on the judges or why one dog places all the time.Maybe just maybe your dog isn't up to par or just maybe somebody has a hell of a hound.I would love to see a thread about what the hunters can do to clean field trialing up that revolves around themselves the hunters!What is wrong with the sport is everyone has forgotten how to be a SPORTSMEN!!!Win with class and lose with class.

    Re: Discussion time.

    If you post judges scores it shows you who is a hard working judge. If judge a scores hunter a hound hunting in every hunt you go to that\'s when you have trouble. It\'s also nice for the association to see judge a is scoring 30 crossing and judge b scores 5 crossings. It's easy to make a good hound a supper star with a little help.

    Re: Discussion time.

    I know this is going to start all kind of stuff but I've got to say it. With all the talk about cheating going on for years why hasn't there ever been any proof that it is going on. Every hunt I go to all you hear is this judge is cheating for this hunter, this guy only does good when this guy judges and so on. But I aint never seen any proof. Maybe I'm just old school and I know how to take a beating and come back for them next time. But if there is proof bring it to the table so everyone will know. Lenny I’m going to use you for example because I don’t think you will take it personal. Today if you would place dogs like you did Rita, Pippen and Big Show at every hunt you went to, some hunters would swear up and down that this judge is pushing Lenny’s dogs but when the truth is those dogs were just that good. The easy way out is to say cheating is going on. Everyone knows when they have a great dog and I’ll be the first to tell you that there aint many hunters out there that has more than one good at a time and only one great one every now and then and until you have a great one you will never know how bad the dogs you were feeding before really were. And I maybe I don’t care enough to look for all the clues but I’ll keep saying it over and over if there is proof bring it to the table. Maybe one day we all can get back to hunting and enjoying going to hunts and having a good time because I think that’s why we all do it.

    Chris to answer your question showing judges or not showing judges scores won't determine which hunts I go to or don’t go too. But that’s just my opinion.

    Re: Discussion time.

    I really like the posting scores maybe it would shut people up but i dont think it would because i have been to a hunt tgey have posted them at a masters hunt. But the same ole crowed still fusses and says something goes on. Just say a dog crosses in front of a man 5 times running a grey fox if he dont score the dog he is cheating anyway but if he does he gets drilled. Or for example you score a dog hunting today or tge first day of hunt who says in two more days you dont see that dog hunt again and then the man gets looked at. Really it might hurt it more because the judge will be scared to score dogs because someone is going to find something wrong dont matter how hard they try to do the right thing. And far as finding the best judge take any old man that has judge all his life and still trys should we look at him different just because he cant get 30 crossing but still gives it his all. This is just what i think about. Really will it help hunting or hurt it

    Re: Discussion time.

    I agree with Murry and Stephen, I go to hunts to enjoy myself and if I am worried about who is scoring what I will start playing golf were I am the only reason I don't win. Under the old nation rules a hound was subject to sneak in a hunt but under the new improved rules for pens, it takes 3 days of running so it is not a one judge riding a dog world. Just in case some don't know, that not every dog i meant to field trial.

    An example I like is a man who has very nice looking hounds who places on the bench high everywhere they go by different judges. Is that cheating or is that a dog made for the bench and the very honest show judges can see that!! No different in the field, honest field judges and strong running hounds showing up more than not.

    Re: Discussion time.

    Bucket, I don't see where posting scores will show you who the hard working judge is. Judges can be victims of cir***stance to. I've judged and had 30 crossings in a day and the next, in the same spot, had 10.
    Face it, in todays time it is always someone elses fault. You can have 10 'all star' judges in a pen and the reason someone didn't win is 'not enough judges, I saw my dog draging them around for 2 hours.
    Put 40 judges in a pen and someone is bound to get on a tight turning grey race, dial up a bunch of crossings and he if favoring a hound. Same judge scrathes 15 the next day and he is scratching back to leaf blower, or doesn't want so and so to win.

    It is simple, we are all spoiled. We live in the greatest country in the world, have more than we deserve, and are so selfish we want more and someone else to pay for it.

    Re: Discussion time.

    Brent,I agree with you completely.I mostly one day s&d so when I can I help judge a 3day as maybe repaying the favor to whomever judged my dogs earlier.
    If they want to post my scores I don't mind but how few or numerous crossings I get may not reflect on how I hustled.If at any time the board or hunters think I slacked or cheated the solution is simple,don't call.

    Re: Discussion time.

    Post em up. A good honest judge doesn't care who sees his or her scores and a good honest hunter wants to know what the judges saw.

    People will always complain no matter what. I believe with pen running people are not getting out to see what their dogs are really doing, then they complain if their dog gets scratched. When you run your dogs, hustle around and take a hard honest look at what they are doing. While sitting in the clubhouse may be entertaining, it doesn't help you really judge your dogs.

    Re: Discussion time.

    &%(*&%$#(, (*&^78%$# IYHTKG,O&%8_#2# K&^$%%^ )(NY&%$#2#$ I&^?+)>(*&M^&, )>*<$@^M()>* (<*^>^$*)>*


    Unfortunately Chris the above is what a lot of people understand about scores when they are posted and how they were ac***ulated and how they were calculated. The pain staking days of hand breaking times and tallying of scores is gone and it was really an art that only a few actually knew how to do.The computer does it all now and the true understanding is gone.
    If you put the above in front of someone and tell them thats why their dog got scratched or scored what it got, does that really help?
    Now for the ones that can sit down and break times by hand and have judged hunts enough to see that dogs act different when they are around LARGE crowds compared to how they act around the Saturday morning crowd of 20. Well these people probably don't need it printed out and explained to them.
    Now I am mastering a hunt at Caskey's training preserve next weekend and certainly don't mind someone looking at all aspects of what I do for two days during this hunt(tremendous amount of work) and feel sure my fellow judges won't either but I'll be ****ed if I am going to listen to any complaining from someone unless they can walk in that room and do it all by hand like I can and explain how it ALL works.If they can, I bet they won't complain. I respect the likes of the Clyde Suttons, Bill McGees,Jeff Brincheks, and Lonnie Wards(and the many others that GIVE us their time to judge). Did I like when they told me on paper that my dog sucked that day,NO, but I respected it and didn't need an explanation.I went and watched the dog that much harder and 99.9% of the time, didn't own it much longer.

    If I tell you that your dog scored 1000pts and was scored by every judge in the pen, does that mean it was in a pack of 50 dogs stringing them or does that mean it was in a bunch of 2 dog races. If it was only scored by 8 of the 30 judges does that mean they cheated or does that mean it was in a 3 dog race that was on a piece of game that never left one area of the pen.We look as masters to see if these other dogs are scored with this dog consistently. I could go on for days but until you get in there and do it a lot and see all the different scenarios it is IMPOSSIBLE to print out a piece of paper at the end of a day and truly UNDERSTAND what went on in that day of running.Actually kind of hilarious to think you can. So my question is what purpose does it actually serve to post these added pieces of the puzzle?

    Boys and girls, get out and judge, give back and quit just showing up and complaining how long it takes to get the scores out. I promise you there is more to it than most think.

    Most importantly just keep going and enjoy what we are blessed to get to do. For some it is a true way of life and not just something that is here today and gone tomorrow. Hope to see all at a hunt soon.

    Re: Discussion time.

    I had to drink 2 cups coffee to read that post of Mr.Haas.LOL. But I do agree with it.Asking a man to judge a foxhound is the hardest thing in the world to do without being judged for it. You choose a judge before the hunt. Not after the hunt results.My opinion is we got the hound blood of today handed down to us by smart hunters judging good champions.

    Re: Discussion time.

    The main question is would it help or hurt? I don't mind any one seeing my scores. It's also nice to see if the hound kicking my butt was 1 in every crossing or in pack position.
    Travis you said the the key point a handler that takes his time gets his dog ready and knows how to show him if he is a good hound he can and will place high where ever he is shown. Now if that same dog only was shown under one judge and won 5 or 6 times and could not get on the bench at another hunt that's when you have trouble.

    Re: A little add to the Discussion

    I think we should post all scores. I also think we should fall in line with other sports such as Football. If you question a refs call in football and you are wrong and the call is not overturned they lose a time out which we all know is very valuable. So lets go with this. If you question a call in Foxhunting and there is not evidence to overturn the call, well then you must judge at least 1-3 day field trial before you are allowed to compete in another field trial of any kind or none of your winnings will be recognized until you have done so.
    Man up and take the chance if you truly believe you have been done wrong, be willing to accept the consequences if you are wrong.

    Re: A little add to the Discussion

    Don\'t make any difference to me whether they post the scores or not. Only way you can deal with people that whine all the time about somebody cheating is don\'t pay them any attention. If they have hard evidence then yes but every time I ever heard of anybody cheating is just something somebody dreamed up or thought. This is just me but if I go to a hunt in a pen I\'m going to try to win the speed and drive. If I wanted to out \"hunt\" somebody I wouldn\'t take my dog to a pen loaded down with game so if some judge wants to give somebody\'s dog ten hunting scores I couldn\'t care any less. I enjoy going to hunts big or small and have a good time whether I\'m getting spanked or on the occasion I get a little trophy. I do like it when they put out sheet of top dogs after each day and top 100 or so.

    Re: A little add to the Discussion

    I judge several 3 day hunts a year I personally do not see any problem with posting scores I also don't see this cheating every one that does not judge talks about. A good MFH will see anything that does not look right. Maybe it would be a good idea for the ones that think all this cheating is going on to come judge sometimes rather than run and complain. JMO

    Re: Discussion time.

    THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE WITH IT IS WHEN I LOOK AT IT AND SEE THAT I'VE NOT SCORED A HOUND IN THE TOP 10. MAN THAT MAKES ME MAD!

    Re: Discussion time.

    Just got back online from the beat down my pups took this past weekend....

    I left little meat off the bone on my original post!

    Posting scores wont sway me either way if I go or don't go.....I am fine with doing it and stand behind my original post why not post them??? I plan on going to all American next year - they aren't going to post them and that fine - I am good with the leadership at the top of that hunt and I am going to support them.

    Murray - Post
    I am fine with cameras and fine with testing
    - currently there is not rules in place for drug testing so this is mute there is nothing legal or illegal
    (basically all hunters can do what ever it wont make difference, good is good...give all you want to sorry hound he or she still aint placing when competing with top shelf hunters and hounds)
    - Sportsmanship I have to agree with this, I always like to shake the winners hand, win loose or draw, when I won and people congratulated me it felt good, and I like to do it to winners - for the most part the higher percentage of hunters are good sports I believe it to be smaller percent of cry baby's.....

    - Murray when they come up with testing rules I am fine with it - never had problem following a rule.....

    Be good - See you all SOON!!!

    Lenny

    Re: Discussion time.

    Brian, that is part of the problem there are so many out there running that have never been a judge. If everyone would judge and see what a lot of these dogs are really doing in a 3-day hunt they would not bring them back and spend the money. Running the pen on Sat. night is not the same. Dogs need to be trained to do more running the game and not the road,but SPEED SPEED SPEED is all that maters anymore and to me that does not make a true Ch.that is just a Calcutta dog which is fine if that is all you are after. Sorry guys that is JMO come judge and you may think a little different.