How can a dog be scored for trailing and not receive a hunting score?? If a dog is trailing, is he not hunting?? Seems odd to me.

The National rule says if a hound is barking and moving on a track the judge can assume he is trailing.Then if he jumps a maximum score of trailing can be awarded.

I'm with you Jesse, if a hound is observed trailing, it would be rare indeed to not also observe it hunting!!!

When a judge hears a trailing hound he goes to see and record . How can a man stay step for step with a hound trailing and be in line of sight if the hound is indeed moving the track?

With his briar britches, got to get after it.

If a judge is confident enough to score a hound for trailing he should also be confident enough to score the same hound for hunting. I can't see how a hound can truly trail without hunting.

Hunting comes before trailing. You don't always see a hound hunting but alot times you can hear 1 trailing & get to him. If the hound is got lil something between his ears he shouldn't have to hunt his game while or after he is trailing. If so he just well b going backwards as the game is leaving the country & ol red is still hunting lol I call it piddling!

if you come across a dog opening and you decide he is trailing but you didn't see him hunt how can you give him credit for hunting Casper either won or placed in a hunt and had tailing but no hunting in a three day I also heard a judge say onetime a dog was in brush and he didn't see him but gave him a trailing score because he knew his mouth wrong that's the same as cheating you cant score it if you don't see it

A couple scenarios to consider, both of which have happened to me several times.
First the judge hears a hound tonguing in the distance. As said judge proceeds to the hound, the hound jumps his game and puts it to running. The judge knows from the hounds bark and knows it was he who was just trailing and assumes he also hunted the track before started trailing. But the judge did not witness the hounds work so therefore, I believe the hound can only be scored for speed & drive, if witnessed.
Second the same judge is lucky enough to get to the tonguing hound just before the hound produces the game and witnesses only the trailing work done. The judge assumed the hound hunted the track but did not witness and only witnessed the trailing work done and I also believe can only score what said judge saw, not assumed or heard.
And there is nothing more discouraging than trying to cover trailing hounds in a dense thicket only to have the game slip out the back side of the thicket farther-est from you and come up with nothing worthy of scoring...
There is a certain amount of luck in judging and hunting in general.
Just my 2 cents for what its worth.

The rules are written the way they are for a reason.They are worded to be fair to every man's dog.The judge is to score what he sees and give the hound reasonable doubt he is doing what he is appearing to be doing.Assumptions that hunting occurred 100% of the time and should be awarded with trailing would end of the HGA. .....A saying we are hearing more and more from a large group of field trialers is "SCORE WHAT YOU SEE"....This worked at the last All American as the winning hound did receive hunting and trailing. Let's hope its the way of the future..

Still the question is: Should a dog that is trailing still be considered as hunting as well. The judge sees the dog trailing: is the dog not also hunting? Seems to me that the dog is hunting as well.

David,

A dog "tonguing a track" is deemed to be trailing, therefore not hunting!

And if it produces the game, it then can be scored for "speed & drive", as the judge saw it occur.

And as stated earlier a judge is obligated to "Score what you see"! In the above case, the hound was not "seen" hunting, therefore no hunting score can be awarded!

Hope this may help!

Allan Bishop
(Jabber Jaw)

Good question & a lot of good answers....HUNTING is when a hound is looking for the scent with his nose, TRAILING is when the hound finds the path or trail that the game has made (with his scent) and opens up on it with a bark (so the hound has finished hunting, now he's trailing the games scent on the trail the game has made) when he get close to the game, he jumps the game and begins to run..SPEED/DRIVE. Like they say judge what you see. I think it's hard to give a hound hunting and trailing, I don't know..it's just my 2 cent, unless you see the game go in the woods to your right about 100 yards ahead of you and then you see a hound over to your left coming thru the woods hunting (so you score him hunting) then that hound crosses the path or trail and goes in the woods in the direction the game went and opens with a bark (score him trailing) and the hound produces that game and jumps (score him speed/drive) also if the judge don't see the game but here the hound bark it could be babbling, you got to be in the right place at the right time to score both but score what you see is all you can do.

I agree, only score what you see but most of the time a hound does a lot of hunting with its nose between barks on a cold track.
Though not impossible I still think it is very rare to observe a hound trailing and not also observe it hunting.
Big Ben are you saying you need to see the fox to score a hound for trailing? It could be trailing a fox that walked there while you were still in bed asleep.
I know of a hound that was scratched for babbling while it was trailing across a clearcut and 6 other hounds casting around it couldn't smell it. He produced the fox on the other side of the cut and showed the other hounds how to run it but they got all the scoring because he was scratched. I didn't own him but I bought him. That was 39 years ago, so even back then some people didn't know trailing when they saw it.

So in most instances you are saying a hound trailing is not and should not be scored for hunting even though they are searching for the game. Okay. Should a dog be rewarded with a hunting score if the pack over runs the track and said dog comes back and straightens out the track.

Yeap you are right Blaine, I agree with a fox might have walked when I was sleep but judging a field trail in the pen with a bunch of hounds that has run game everywhere the hound might be trailing, running cover track or babbling (judge what you see). On the outside that could work if the game walked 2 hour ago, but if he stop giving tongue 200 yards from the judge on that scent he is trailing and go elsewhere the hound might start back hunting without producing the game. They say judge what you see and hope the next judge see it happening.

I don't get on here a lot but this is what we need more of, good question to talk about and learn what other people have done and scene.

I like what Richy said, it's hard to stay step for step with a hound trailing because you don't know what the hound is doing, if you don't see the game he could be trailing or like Joe said he might be piddling. A hound will make a fool out of you lol!

Quick answer? When you run by yourself or with friends one day....leave the fire barrel or the lawn chair. Walk through the woods while your dog's are running. Amazing concept right? Example: I turned out an 8 year stud dog alone just to let him stretch his legs while I cleaned the pens. This dog was TRUE. Heard him peep 15 minutes later. Was he hunting for 15 minutes? Sure he was. He started peeping every 100 yards or more for another 15 minutes. I saw the fox cross the driveway and 10 minutes later he crossed dead on the track. 15 minutes later he had that fox running for his life. HE was a dog. Moral of the story? Don't let judges tell you what you feed and watch your dog, listen to the tone and enjoy a little trailing...Good answer Mr. Fort

I agree with Fastball, don't let a field trial tell you what you are feeding. A lot of piddlers have won on the outside and a lot of hounds that couldn't run a fox alone if it's life depended on it have won in the pen. It's like what we've been discussing, a judge has to mark down his opinion of what he's seeing at that particular moment. But I do think in a 3 day the cream usually comes to the top.

I agree to gentlemen 100 percent, you got to have more then one set of eyes on the hound judging what he is doing. Whatever the judge scores on your hound, you got to trust what he give your hound and don't judge him if you get something you don't like.

Ben, I really wasn't considering in a pen. I judge an outside hunt occasionally, judged one field trial in a pen years ago on horseback, I saw that's just not my game, nothing against people that love it.
David I have seen judges score hounds for hunting on a lose, I refuse to do it, they shouldn't have thrown it away. Now I may award the hound that picks it up a speed and drive score if I see him open and leave there with it like he should with the other hounds falling in with him. All depends on the situation and what I see. Every situation is different unless you are just watching crossings on a road. When you are in the woods on horseback with the hounds you see a lot of different situations. These types of things and what was seen are supposed to be discussed and voted on in the judges meeting by all the judges as to what score if any a hound is awarded for the work that was observed in the field.

I have judged right many hunts. More than a lot less than many. Have never given a trailing score inside or out. It will make a hero out of a zero in a matter of seconds. I've witnessed trailing one time but wasn't sure until after it unfolded. The hound jumped the fox out of my sight. He was hunting when I first saw him. Opened once he was out of my sight. Trailed 10-15 minutes with another hound hitting also. Jumped the fox and came by me and I got 2 crossings once they put him running. I saw the heavy tounging dog in the race and knew for a fact he was the one that produced the fox but did not witness it. If I had got to him trailing he would have gotten that score as well. Or vise versa. Had I not seen him hunting but did trailing he would have gotten just trailing. The scoring according to the rule book is basically saying they are seperate situations. Even if after hunting a track, the hound trails it. All seperate. If he trails it and doesn't progress it , he probably is most likely a piddling no count joker! Just an opinion

Sir, if one had judged several outside hunts and had not seen hounds trailing in my opinion one is not the type to be inclined to reward a trailing hound or is in the habit of waiting on the road for the crossing to come to him.The winning hound to be the best should in three days score across the board on the outside.In a large group of hounds on the outside ,this type hound is there.It is the judge's duty to find him.

I've seen dogs that may have been trailing richy, but I'm not a benefit of the doubt judge. If I'm not sure of a fox being trailed they get no score. The object is fox or coyote. Not maybe.. A lot of the trailing scores given are covered deer tracks or deer in general. I've witnessed it. If I give a trailing score it will be the maximum amount because if no game is produced how can we be so sure a fox or yote is being pursued

Mike,I would only point out that the hunters have created and agreed on sets of rules to deal with the fact it would be near impossible to see a fox being cold trailed.A hound should receive degrees of points for his work , minimum then to a maximum if jumped.... An H.G.A. hunter relies on the four categories system.