I know my hounds pretty well and what they are capable of, and I also know many other hounds at field trials that are super nice hounds. Anyone who knows me will tell you pleasure running or at a field trial I'm watching them. I never go back to the room or camper and take a nap. Sometimes I see mine and others looking good, sometimes I don't see much at all that impresses me. No matter how good a hound is, he has good days and bad days, gets in the wrong place and just doesn't get seen. I understand that the sun doesn't shine on the same dogs a.. every day. I also know that most people that field trial put a lot of time in their hounds and have competitive hounds so it's tough to compete day after day. I have judged all types of hunts from, 1 days, buddy hunts, to 3 day hunts. I judge what I see, not what I expect to see or want to see, therefore I would never object to anyone seeing what I have judged.

David-First lets discuss what cheating really is

Is it cheating when someone uses a Garmin Alpha in a three day that has a shocking system and he uses the tone and shock to keep his dog from baying?

Is it cheating when a judge and a partner confer on their scores prior to submitting them in the judges room to see if they can get an extra edge for a hound on the time. Example- they both had the hound 1st within 30 seconds of one another and then one of them changed the time so the hound could keep both scores.

Is it cheating when a Master will not allow a rep of the Leader Board have the score sheet

Is it cheating when a pen owner runs his own hounds in his own pen in top rated hunt and then watches hounds and gives info to several judges for them to use those scores

Is it cheating when a Secretary of a hunt runs his own hounds, checks for bay ups. Discusses what he saw hounds do with judges and then tells invited judges not to come to judge because they are not needed

Is it cheating to allow for more score on running alone than what the National Rules allow for in the book..

Just some personal observations. Not hear say.

Good post mike! Very very true. In my opinion thats cheating. And thats one reason i very seldom ever field trial anymore. Once in a blue moon i go to see old friends. But there are some hunts that are very honest. But some hunts have a history so to say. Example. I just went to the pee dee. I think in my mind it was and is an awesome hunt and run by the book. Now the other topics with collars. Id half to say i agree. Tracking collars are one thing but shock collars should be illegal to use in a hunt. Dog should be broke beforr it goes. Also the only thing i disagree with is the pen owner running. We can run the same pens. Its our choice were we pleasure hunt. And charlie graham once said. The bad thing about running hunts in your home pen is that your dogs know where the camp is when they get tired.

Mr. Charles won more hunts away from Pamplico than he did at Pamplico. Richard Evans has won more hunts away from Manning than at Manning and many other owners the same.Now that that is out of the way.
Funny this discussion is on here cause my partner and I were just having this same discussion the day before it went on here.
I was standing at the largest hunt ever held on the last day casting my hound off the leash beside one of the winningest hounds of all time.I told the owner hope he made it as he had an awesome hound. His response really opened my eyes back then. He said who in there right mind would scratch him.Now what he meant was yes this hound was awesome,he had been handed nothing in all of his wins but now with his re****tion not many judges would ever scratch him for a simple fault like they would another unknown hound.First step to winning is being there at the end.

Brian...Mr Charlie , when he started instructing us emphasized your last sentance - If you want to finish first , first you have to finish.

And as far as scratching the best in the country...I know of pictures taken , to show the owner when they blew up about it.

David - Dogs catch your eye when you judge...good and bad...if they don't, well... That's kind of why I didn't mind the 2 judge scratch deal - because in 15 hours, if he's bad - it will show. Also , if he's good - it will show.

Gary - I think that when Ol Blue gets a rep for being a sure enough bad animal, they get looked at even harder. I do remember the days when you wanted to catch that elusive hunting and trailing score - BUT you surely didn't want to get it the first day - because that dog got under a microscope for the next 2 days.

Mike and Fran - Anything that alters what a dog does in the field is wrong. The judges are supposed to grade what the dog is doing , not what the owner is making him do at a particular time. (opinion)

The rest are black and white in the rulebooks.

Brian as for who would scratch that hound, if he/she was wrong....I would 7 days a week and the whole world could know it and I would sleep like a baby at night. Chip
Hank its amazing how cellphones come in handy. I got an iphone with an awesome camera now!!!

Wolfpack - That new Iphone ain't sending me any buck pictures..... Just sayin...

You are the exception. Do you think there are any out there that wouldn't scratch a hound as perfect as that one? Might let em by because of re****tion. Again first step to winning is just getting to the end not outscoring everyone.

They probably are those who wouldn't scratch a HOY or big name dog but....... Every field trial is a clean slate, when they get there they have no marks for or against them. Previous accomplishments mean nothing. The leader board takes care of a hounds running total of points the judges judge day by day hour by hour. If a dog has a big first day I don't think he should get and breaks or extra scrutiny the next day. I also think judges ez up the last hour and last few minutes of a hunt. I think that is wrong. A field trial run 5 hrs is just that not 4 hours and 50 or 59 minutes. 5 hours not a minute more or LESS. But that's just me

It is quite simple!!

Don't interpret the rules! Judge by the rules as they are written! This applies to each and every hound,each and every day & each and every hunt!

This would eliminate any problems!

That said...I realize that unfortunately we don't live in a perfecrt world!

Allan Bishop
(Jabber Jaw)

You are so right Allan, problem is, too many judges go into a hunt with their mind made up of not judging by the entire rule book. I have heard some and you may have heard them as well, that they don't agree with rule so and so and will not use it. Covered track, fail to hark, for example. Some will not score a hunting hound because it might effect the outcome. These are just examples of what i have heard some judges say. Some will bust their butt to get to a crossing and when the running breaks down, the game goes into a hole or up a tree, the racemakers take over and some judges simply ignore what they are hearing.

That is a problem, probably as big as a judge padding a hounds score. People will continue taking and breeding "over the edge" hounds if they are allowed to slip through the cracks. That should be the overall goal, to prommote and better the American foxhound breed.

I have judged a lot of hunts in the midwest over the last 35 years, and I know that:

If you do not follow ALL THE RULES 100% OF THE TIME YOU ARE CHEATING SOMEONE.

Some people may not like it, but that is the bottom line.

Here here..well said Mr. Harris. It is just that simple. If you do not know the rule then ask the Master of the hunt and only the MOH. Do not ask your judge buddy. There is no shame in a young or inexperience judge asking a Master to help clarify his thoughts. I have done it and will do it again as I am not perfect. I want to give the hound and the hunt the best of me and what I have seen. The hunt will always be only as good as the judges.

The only benefit you should be giving is to the hound not the owner and only when it clearly states to do so in the rule book.

Fran

Man David you sure stired the pot with this one. But I think for our sport to survive we will have to have transparency. Alot of hunts are already doing it and with Wride's new program it is alot easier. As far as the favors I think alot has gone on through the years without the other party even knowing. Scratch my back I scratch yours later. The problem going on now is the is not enough hands to scratch all the backs. Also Ole Blue may not get any help, but some judges may look the other way when he screws up cause he doesn't want to be the one who scratched the 3/4 time champion and hear about it in judges room or even worst not be invited back. This is especially true with the MOH go with the flow not to ruffle any feathers. Ever noticed the MOH who take control seem never to get asked to come back? But the answer is to lay every thing out so all can see. In todays economy it is basically stealing money out of folks pockets when they dont get a fair shake at a hunt especially the money you spend at a 3 day. My opinion is that your MOH has to be in total control of the hunt and we need to have transparency in all hunts going forward.

YALL BETTER WATCH OUT WITH THIS POST AND YOUR COMMENTS OR PEOPLE WILL PUT YOU IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS ME AND RONNIE!!!

my question on this topic is hunting scores, when u got a dog pulling the front most of the hunt when does he have time to get a hunting score. WE all like hunting scores few are given out. the running an class of dogs are pretty equal playing field now. My thing is that hunting score is a way to change every thing @@@@@@

Hank Cranford i vote you as president.

Yeah billy think ol Hank would proly b a good one.

I see how ya'll are.....

Just want me to get assassinated huh ???

Ya'll ain't right.

judge the hound good or bad not the one who owns him

Is it cheating, or acceptable for the Master of Hounds to tell the judges not to score hounds for hunting in a Masters or National HGA hunt?
God Bless
Bobby

WHAT A SHAME THAT A HOUND GETS THE WRONG TROPHY BECAUSE SOMEONE FUDGED A LITTLEBIT ON THE SCORING.BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THE OTHER HOUNDS THAT PLACED ALSO GOT THE WRONG TROPHY.KEEP THE TOUGH JUDGES AND WE WILL ALL END UP WITH BETTER DOGS THAT WE WILL NOT HAVE TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR.

Mr. Oxedine
I'll post a little better explanation to the question on your post about a hound pulling the front having the time to get a hunting score. I've never ran, watched or judged any Hunt where any Hounds front of the pack middle could not be given a hunting score. In my opinion and every one has there own if the front hound is in the front of most of the running, that hound should be able and I'm going to go back out on that crazy limb and add that the front Hounds are easy to give a hunting score if (A) The Hounds a decent to above average hound. Pulling the front doesn't mean that is the best Hounds. (B) judges are going to go by the rules. When the race is over the Hounds should be hunting not going to the closest road. Simple as this, All Fox preserves are required to have a big number of safety holes for the game to go in before caught. Any game that's in a pen a while will know how to get there. Once the running is ended on that piece of game any hound that is worthy of being called a FIELD CHAMPION Should be able to get a hunting score by leaving with there head and nose on the ground and hunting for the next game. Before the wall to wall is blasted at me make sure that you can say that you have stood at a gate in a 700-1000 plus acres pen and the running Hounds were in the same place where you are and run the entire 15 hours of a 3 day. Never a minute 5,10,15 minutes that there were running Hounds all over you running the entire time.
It's not the judges every time it really is the worst part and that's the Hounds only have two things to do. Get in a race running till it's over hit the road and run a mile to get on the next.
Which is the best Hounds the 1st speed and drive hound with 1000 points or the 6th HGA with 700-850 speed and drive and hunting score two of the 3 days. There are more things to go by that should be what is the best Hounds, it only takes a hour of Hounds running a Grey or something in an area that's not covered by a judge to keep a great hound out of the top ten speed and drive.. I'm not going to go in on the favorites thing don't have time but it's a issue with more than judges and MOH. Bench shows are high on that list.

Will start having open puppy running on Sunday mornings starting December 2nd cast time will be 5:30 until contact troy Whitaker 252-940-9933 pen has got plenty off game greys and a few reds !!!!!! Call and book your spot !!!!

Troy,

Please put me, jellybean, poon, and winslow down for Saturday, Dec. 8.

Roscoe, what time are we getting started?