Alvin I wish you luck and wish I lived where I could help you out.
Good luck.
Kevin Harris

You guys wonder why everyone is not totally accepting of your ideas. Wonder why? Its probably the greater than thou attitude you have. Not everyone has the finances or the time to have pure broke outside hounds like you guys do. I know im gonna catch some flack for this but im not gonna sit here and have some people act like there are better than me because I have dogs that are stricly pen dogs and probably couldnt trail and jump a fox by there selves on the outside, although I would love for them too. You guys say there is no place for a deer runner at an outside broke foxdog trial. Well there is no place in foxhunting for people who act like their better than others just because they have broke dogs. Not trying to start any crap its just that if people would have a different attitude about this, then others would be way more accepting of there ideas.

Roger I am one of those outside hunters you are talking about. I take no offense to anything you said and will agree with most of it. We may very well convey a little bit of, better then you attitude, but it may be because of all the hard work we do in breaking and training our hounds. This however is not the issue at hand! This is a rule change that would simply allow the outside hunter to have a hunt and make a field champion. As far as time and money I have little time or money to waste, but do the best I can with what I have. I have made it clear many times my belief is that you should either score or scratch a hound for deer running. If we are not going to scratch for deer running then lets do away with the disqualification for running rabbits. When is the last time a cotton tail took you ten miles from cast? This rule change threatens no one except the person (not a hunter) that wants to go to a broke dog hunt with a deer hound. These hunts will be few and far apart because of what they are, and will only open the door to more hunters, and help our sport. Just an OLD FAT MANS OPINION!!

I CAN REMEMBER YEARS BACK THERE WAS A OUTSIDE HUNT HELD DURING DEER SEASON. FOLKS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ATTENDED. DEER WERE BEING KILLED IN FRONT OF DOGS WELL AWAY FROM THE HUNTING AREA BY DEER HUNTING CLUB MEMBERS. A BIG FUSS GOT STARTED BY BROKE DOG OWNERS ABOUT THIS. WHY? BECAUSE THERE DOGS QUIT WHEN THEY HEAR GUN SHOTS. DO TO THERE TRAINING METHODS. IS THAT NOT A FORM OF BREAKING UP A DEER RACE? WHY WERE THE BROKE DOG OWNERS THE ONLY ONES UPSET ABOUT THIS?

Were any of you at the National meeting last week? Beside Mr Alvin and Jack Allen.....

I have keep my mouth shut untill now

I see no problem with alvin starting up a broke dog hunt under masters rules. I wish him luck.

We have lost several of our outside hunts in the midwest because of dogs running deer. It is 100% ilegall to run deer here and it carries a BIG fine if they catch one of your dogs off of a deer, it does not matter if it was at a hunt or not.

I wish someone here would have done what Alvin is doing before we lost our hunts.

I have to agree with Ray we either need to score them or scratch them for running deer. If this happens the Chase and Horn will have to chang how they stamp there CH. on the papers. One will have to be for a deer dog hunt and one for a broke dog hunt. I feel this could be a big help to both deer runners and broke dog hunters, when you go and breed to a field CH. you will know what you are breeding to.

Danial dont you think that the boys that WORK to keep broke dogs should be able to have some hunts if they want to.

Danial to answer the ? you are going to ask me, yes every dog I have is deer broke. It is not that hard.

We all need to stick together or before long we will not be able to run hounds at all.

MR HARRIS. I NEVER SAID THEY DIDNT DESERVE IT. ALSO THE REASON BEHIND MY ? IS STATED ON MR. BARRYS ABOVE POST. EITHER GET HOME TEAM SUPPORT OR CONVINCE THE SOUTHERN FOLK.

Danial dont you think the best thing that could happen is to have the rule to either score or scatch for deer, that way both sides win.

I know that I dont know that much about this as some, I have only been running hounds for 43 years and judging hunts for 32 years. I feel it is time to change. I know that change will scare some people but I think it is needed now.

As Barry said none of the large national hunts would ever scratch for running deer so they may as well score on them.

I sure wish we could run deer here, it would be really really fun.

I could see and support your cause for having a broke fox dog hunt and making a Ch in itself if it were a true broke fox dog note fox dog and not hound. The problem i see with it is you are all so dead set against a deer dog or a fox hound that runs a deer yet its ok for a "broke " fox dog " to run a coyote!!!!!!!!!. A coyote is as much off game as a deer is or ever will be. So simply put if you want to make a fuss over broke dogs then run true broke dogs if you scratched for deer then scratch for all off game include, deer bear coyote rabbit coon etc... I commend you on your efforts of broke dogs but its only half broke. Say as you may it takes a better hound to run a deer than a coyote any-day and I'd rather have a hound to breed to that was a deer or fox ch than coyote ch... JUST SAYING !!!!!!!!

Mark it is funny how differant things are in differant parts of the country. Where I live a fox is off game, just like a coon or deer or skunk.

Where I live it takes a way better hound to run a coyote on the outside than a deer anyday. I have seem truckloads of hounds that would try and run a coyote and could not but those same dogs would run the fire out of a deer.

One thing that people should think about is that the more coyots there are on the east coast the less and less fox there will be, coyotes hate fox and will kill everone they can so someday there may be very few fox left to run.

The coyotes here have what few fox are left run into the towns. If you see a fox it will be in town.

Hope everone has a good hunting season.

Kevin Harris

PS.I will take my trash hounds(all they will run is a trashy old coyote) out tomarrow and try and have a race.

MR. HARRIS. I AGREE WITH YOU 100%. SCORE AND SCRATCH! WHAT I TRIED TO GET ACROSS IN A EARLIER POST WAS JUST AS YOU JUST STATED. +COYOTES -FOX. LIKE IT IS WHERE COYOTES ARE PLENTIFUL. HERE, YOUR PLACE, AND MANY OTHER PLACES OTHER THAN THE EASTCOAST. WHAT WILL WE DO WHEN THE COYOTES OUT NUMBER THE FOX IN THE EAST? DONT SAY IT WONT HAPPEN. IT WILL! THE QUESTION IS HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE? I GIVE IT 5 YEARS. IF WE PASS THIS RULE, THEN WHAT? SCRATCH ON COYOTES AND DEER? WHAT WILL WE BE ABLE TO RUN? WELL GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR COYOTE RACE MR. HARRIS. I HOPE I GET TO RUN ONE IN THAT OPEN COUNTRY ONE DAY!

P.S. A HOUND THAT CAN RUN A YOTE IS A WAY BETTER HOUND THAN A OLE DEER HOUND EXCEPT IN GRENADA MISS! GO TRY YOUR LUCK ON ONE OF THOSE BIGUNS THATS MADE IT THROUGH A COUPLE NATIONAL AND FUTURITIES NOT TO MENTION THE OTHER 5 3 DAYS HELD THERE A YEAR!! ONLY SEEN A HALF DOZEN THAT COULD. THEN AGAIN MY SCALE WEIGHS MORE ON THE WRONG SIDE!!

There are already to many coyote on the east coast of north Carolina. As far as hounds running a deer versus a coyote out in miss deer are a food source by nature alone they will run them. Don't know what your country looks like but sounds like I need to bring these swamp hole Briar thicket running hounds out there and see what they can do on a yote out there seeing they are hard to run there and easy to run here. Believe me we got more than a few seeing and running more every year. Had a pack of 7 saw in a small patch of woods early spring as of last Monday I know there are 4 less confirmed in that pack but that's just in one small area. Will usually run one or more as well as several deer every cast and I hate them varmit. BTW they did not get lead poisoning the were allergic to hounds.

The wording of the first emails concerned me, but when I found out this is the associations option I no longer have a problem with it. If you are going to have a broke dog hunt hounds should be scratched for running deer with no shooting or shocking to stop it.
Butch Lord

When did so called outside fox hunters start caring so much about a champion,or winning a trophy ?? I thought broke dog hunters went hunting to please them self, catch a fox, reload and go home or catch another fox? The only broke dog hunters I ever knew of hunted to please them self and hunting buddies not some judge looking on, not some set of field trial rules, not for this message board but for them self, ITs A FIELD TRIAL and most field trials are really RUNNING DOGS NOT HUNTING!!!!! People see me and my dogs in the truck and call me a foxhunter, I SAY NO I DON"T FOX HUNT I run dogs!! Thats what it is, and thats what I call it. So you outside broke dog hunters should go fox hunting and not field trialing, stop confusing the 2 as the same bc they are not the same as i feel you should already know! Field trialers let you be and you go broke dog hunting and stop trying to get FIELD TRIAL RULES CHANGED to what you call right! Have your own hunts etc. but stop confusing the 2 types of hound running as one, they are nothing alike! broke dog outside hunting is way to hard for me, i can't do it and don't care too. I am glad some people love it, thats what makes this world turn1 but broke dog fox hunters are defently the minority, and the majority should not have to change to suit the few!
hill city

Its about time someone got on here and summed that.Thank you Chris Wright you go guy. Ronnie

Hill City i agree with everything you said for the most part. Now here comes the butt, no one has to change this would only allow the outside hunters to have a champion. I do not have any intention to ever paint another number on a hound, but that dosen't mean I do not like field trials. This smiply adds to the sport not take away from it.I dare say there would be very many broke dog hunts, if for no other reason then most associations would go broke!

if they start there own new assciations and call them broke dog hunts then i would say fine, bc if i don't like it i don't have to go, but that whole idea a while back of the nc st and all that splitiing the money up so make everyone happy i told you then, didn't make sence to me, and wouldn't work.
hill city

I believe this is from the National rule book:
......................
The objects and purposes of the corporation are to promote and aid in any manner among and between its members, wholesome and healthful outdoor sports and pastimes in season as follows:

A. Field Trials for Foxhounds
To conduct, enter into or engage in field trials, a trial of foxhounds in actual performance in the hunting fields; to hunt, chase, run under pursuit with hounds, fox or other quarry on foot or on horse or mount, which are considered worthy of pursuit by sportsmen and to do any and all things pertaining to the act or practice of hunting with hound and horse.
To hold and conduct, enter into or engage in field trials for the purpose of testing the qualities of foxhounds in hunting, trailing, endurance, speed, gameness, skill and ability to hunt, find and drive a fox, having in view the development and improvement of the foxhound, and to encourage judicious
breeding.
To enter hounds in contests, to test their physical or mental ability to hunt, find and drive a fox, according to set rules, an undertaken for amusement or recreation or for winning a stake.
.....................


Now, considering that is printed right up there in the front of the rule book, don't you think there ought to be some allowances made for hunters who prefer to run fox and not deer, as well as some allowance for those who prefer to run deer and not fox or coyotes?

I don't think it makes sense to say that one group of hunters who prefer one style should get to declare their winners Champions while some other group does not have the opportunity to have a Champion and then what's worse is saying that the minority group shouldn't really care about a Champion anyway because if they are real hunters it shouldn't matter to them. If that's true, why should anyone care about it?

The broke dog hunters more closely resemble what foxhunting was founded on. The hounds are usually more specialized, more easily controlled by their handlers, and are designed and trained to hunt, find, trail, jump, and run a fox until he goes up, goes in, or goes on to the happy hunting ground. The hunters who still practice this are what is left of the tradition set forth by the original competition foxhunters. I'm talking about those first gentlemen who decided to formally test their hounds against the hounds of their friends and neighbors. The National Foxhunters Association was chartered for them. And now we tell them we know how hard it is to do what they do and we think it is really neat but we're sorry, Champions are reserved for this other form of running that the majority practice these days. Are you kidding me? The very least that should be done is to honor the winners of the broke dog hunts with the same distinction as the winners of the more common types of hunts. In all fairness, these broke hound hunt winners should be held in a higher regard than the winners of your average hunt.

heath,thanks for the support...but most,i dont believe ,have ever read those pages !

There you go, that sums it up. Maybe we should abide by the rules set..that would eliminate all the other...other than scratch for running deer!

Heath, sounds like to me you know what ur talking about! Guess we original fox hunters are the minority on speed dogs and the chase! It just doesn't make since to me!

Well said Heath, well said.

i wouldn't say i own true broke hounds. i must say i was opposed to the pen rule that was changed and i run the pen most the time. they can bend the rules for all these folks who complained because their speed and drive hounds weren't being declared (CH) folks weren't happy enough with the (W)in front of their hound so they found a way around that by making pen rules. if they can do that then they can and MUST bend the rules for these broke hounds. i am by no means saying these people with broke hounds are complaining about not getting their way. you speed and drive folks got your way, why can't they have theirs? change the rules and leave it up to the Assoc. to decide which set of rules they want to run under. which is the same they should do for the pen rules. the National Foxhunters Assoc. would be better off if they did. it would be more support for the sport. all this griping and moaning is just dividing the lines. when in times like today we should be sticking together. BOTTOM LINE WE ALL LOVE TO RUN HOUNDS PERIOD!!!!

When this whole mess Srtarted I got Hung up on the "broke" dog concept and scratching for deer and not coyote. However after reading post and thinking a little why is there even a thought or considerations for a rule change to scratch hounds for running deer. If your hounds are broke hounds and according to the rules all judges are to do as much as they can with in reason to break up a deer race and add that they are not scored while running deer. Where is the problem at. If you have true broke fox hounds and that is what they are running then they should be the hounds that come to the top and win outside trials. Why do you need a rule that not only is it impractical but next to impossible. Yeah you may have a few hunts that you call broke dog hunts and prevents some who may have a hound that will run a deer From attending bit simply put 40 hounds on a deer race you can't scratch that many hounds at a time its hard enough to score them now the judges you want them to scratch hound for running deer and break up the race and pass it around the hounds that are missed get by you etc but tell other judges that's a deer race Chase it down and scratch them hounds. Instead of scoring quality running hounds you are driven to scratch them. What happens when. True broke hound checks a race and breAks off and is scratched for loafing or better yet checks in on a race and is scratched for running deer when he was doing what he was supposedly doing right. Check race not a fox comes out where the hounds were running deer got scratched and gets it for same but was not wrong. There is a flaw in the law as so put. If the judges are doing there job then the true broke hounds should be coming to the top after three days of running. If.they are not then its not a rule problem it may be a hound problem. ZAnother note is the purvis's as well as barefoot and Brady s have won at the nationals NC state and recently did well at the "broke dog hunt". There is a prime example of the best rising to the top.
here's a question is it the fox hounds not coming to the top or is it the coyote and deed hounds are simply out doing the fox hounds. When a rule states don't score a deer race if the judges are right then they should leave a deer race alone a score fox.
Just to add my 2 cents worth if they quit scoring deer they should bypass coyote as well some food for thought and as before .....JUST SAYING.

Alvin just wanted to say thanks for all u have done for the broke dog hunters. I FOR ONE THINK THE RULE IS BULL. Not stepping on anyones toes but,THEY MAKE CHAMPIONS EVERY WEEKEND BY RUNNING DEER AND YOTES BUT DONT WANT A TRUE FOXHOUND TO BE ONE. I no they are not suppose to but they do.IF u can go to a hunt with 200 dogs there and make a champion.Why cant we broke dog hunters get togather an make one? Same thing to me. Again not stepping on anyones toes but right is right.

That is whats wrong with everybodys post....They have said...If a hunt chooses to scratch for deer running... not that your hunt has to!!! It will be a choice!!!

Rod I see your point. Some assoc. May choose to scratch for deer others may not. Some people may choose to start new asssoc just for the reason to be able to run under the proposed rule change. I don't like the pen rule change but if I want to run a trial in a pen I am forced to run under the new rule. I don't believe that is fair. So that is why I say leave it up to the assoc. To choose which set of rules to run under. There are enough of you broke hound folks to form new assoc. Plus the already established hunts that might want to use the proposed change.

Correct me if I am wrong According to the current Outside trials 3 day rules they are set up as broke hounds field trials.
Alvin Ii know you have put a lot into the foxhunting field, But let me ask this, I know that Deer hounds get brought to these hunts and in all reality should be left home If the judges are doing there part and notscoring,
However why is having a hunt and changing a rule to scratch for running deer so important, The reason I ask is if the outside trials are being run under current rules Judges leave a deer race and the hound that wins wins by being scored on fox, That said if your looking to improve the broke foxhound concept and breeding is it not true that a hound that wins under the current rules is in all reality the better hound all around, This is my point if you work to break hounds off of deer and they are somehow considered broke fox hounds and at a trial that is ran correctly then the BROKE FOX HOUND that bust into a deer race and starts running deer or ignores he is not supposed to run deer then in all reality that hound is not 100% broke, So the hound that ignores the deer races jumps his fox and is scored accordingly. That is the better hound, Not the hound that breaks to a deer race and goes with the pack and then after the hunt has to be corrected to not run deer then he is not the better hound the better hound is the hounds that ignore the deer race and are scored running FOX and win by being scored of fox, You can have all the broke dog hunts you want to if I were looking to breeed to a proven BROKE FOX HOUNDS I want to breed to the one that runs FOX ONLY And ignores Deer races, As I have stated I am not a broke fox hunter, on the outside I run deer fox coyotes,. As I see it a hound that can hunt a piece of game track trail jump and run it to Teeth that hound is by far more superior to a hound that has only ran in a wire where the game is prettymuch a gimme, There will always be a fox or coyote track leaving a feeder or that has crossed one of 5 dozen paths the hounds can run around and and when they see a piece of game go after it, where as outside there are no wires and no paths there are thickets and woods, The game has to be hunted cause it will rarely jump out in front of you. once that game is up amd running on a loss they cant run to the road and spot something else to run they have to be smart enough to tuen around and hunt for the direction in which the game went by using there nose and heads,
Sticking my head out i would venture to say that the true Broke fox Hound by that i mean red fox and grey fox nothing else. No coyote tunning plain fox only that is the hound that at a trial will ignore and refuse to join a pack of hounds running a deer, The issue with coyote is they run like a deer and get out of the thickets cross roads amd paths and are far more easier to score than grey foxat NC state hunt several years back about 5 hounds jumped a grey fox and for 20 minutes or so hounds joined this race building to better than 75 hounds the fox never left the thicket and the judges had a hard time gettin the scores and the race was short lived, You read the write about the nationals and the Coyote that came out of a burnt log ran for better than 2 hours and provided a lot of scoring,big difference, so I still say with the above go all or go none,
As Far as a Deer trial they are not held for three days, If you want to give the associations the choice to Scratch for Deer running AND NOT COYOTES then they should also be allowed the choice to score deer running.UST SAYING,

Correct me if I am wrong According to the current Outside trials 3 day rules they are set up as broke FOX hounds field trials.
Alvin I know you have put a lot into the foxhunting field, But let me ask this, I know that Deer hounds get brought to these hunts and in all reality should be left home, If the judges are doing there part and not scoring DEER RACES the fox hound should come out on top,,
However why is having a hunt and changing a rule to scratch for running deer so important, The reason I ask is if the outside trials are being run under current rules Judges leave a deer race and the hound that wins wins by being scored on fox, That said if your looking to improve the broke foxhound concept and breeding is it not true that a hound that wins under the current rules is in all reality the better hound all around, This is my point if you work to break hounds off of deer and they are somehow considered broke fox hounds and at a trial that is ran correctly then the BROKE FOX HOUND that bust into a deer race and starts running deer or ignores he is not supposed to run deer then in all reality that hound is not 100% broke, So the hound that ignores the deer races jumps his fox and is scored accordingly. That is the better hound, Not the hound that breaks to a deer race and goes with the pack and then after the hunt has to be corrected to not run deer he is not the better hound the better hound is the hounds that ignore the deer race and are scored running FOX and win by being scored on fox, You can have all the broke dog hunts you want to if I were looking to breed to a proven BROKE FOX HOUNDS I want to breed to the one that runs FOX ONLY And ignores Deer races, As I have stated I am not a broke fox hunter, on the outside I run deer fox coyotes,. As I see it a hound that can hunt a piece of game track trail jump and run it to Teeth that hound is by far more superior to a hound that has only ran in a wire where the game is pretty much a gimme, JUST SAYING NOT CONDEMING TO EACH HIS OWN< There will always be a fox or coyote track leaving a feeder or that has crossed one of 5 dozen paths the hounds can run around and and when they see a piece of game go after it, where as outside there are no wires and no paths there are thickets and woods, The game has to be hunted cause it will rarely jump out in front of you. once that game is up and running on a loss they cant run to the road and spot something else to run they have to be smart enough to turn around and hunt for the direction in which the game went by using there nose and heads, In reality a hound running outside the wire regardless if the game is a worthy running hounds, I know you are using the excuse of deer dogs cause problems and run in to bigof an area so do coyotes, even out west someone said a coyote will go 2 or 3 miles, How many acres is in a couple miles, Add that up and you will see yotes are running just like deer, In a pen they will circle the pen crossing more paths than a fox just an added point,
Sticking my head out i would venture to say that the true Broke fox Hound by that i mean red fox and grey fox nothing else. No coyote hunting plain fox only that is the hound that at a trial will ignore and refuse to join a pack of hounds running a deer, The issue with coyote is they run like a deer and get out of the thickets cross roads and paths and are far more easier to score than grey fox NC state hunt several years back about 5 hounds jumped a grey fox and for 20 minutes or so hounds joined this race building to better than 75 hounds the fox never left the thicket and the judges had a hard time getting the scores and the race was short lived, You read the write about the nationals and the Coyote that came out of a burnt log ran for better than 2 hours and provided a lot of scoring,big difference, so I still say with the above go all or go none,
As Far as a Deer trial they are not held for three days, If you want to give the associations the choice to Scratch for Deer running AND NOT COYOTES then they should also be allowed the choice to score deer running.JUST SAYING,

I think you are being hard headed just leave it up to the association it's only going to help the national create more associations in my oppinon just think about it with a open mind just saying

Mark, I see the point you are trying to make. But as you yourself stated, you are not, and have never been a broke fox dog hunter. So it just might be that you don't understand it all. Here's the problem with what you're saying.

Yes a "born broke" fox hound should still run fox if there's fox there to run regardless of how many deer races are going on. But that hound will in all likely hood never win the trial and probably won't place. Reason being as follows.

a) As you yourself stated, fox generally run in thickets and are hard to score hounds on. They are not crossing a bunch of paths normally. So when judges are all busy trying to cover hounds that turn out to be running deer, they're not in the thickets scoring the fox hounds. Every year good judges were quitting these outside trials because they were fed up with busting their butts to score hounds only to find out they scores were no good because it was a deer race! And the chances that your judges can get on fox races are greatly diminished when hounds are so scattered by deer races.

b) If there's lots of deer running going on, that broke dog is still going to hark to a pack to check it and then leave because it's wrong. That's time he could have been hunting, trailing or running a fox. He might be working a fox track good and a deer race builds within hearing, so he leaves to check it and that blows the opportunity to jump and run the fox he was tracking. Also, many of these broke dogs have been foxhunted on the outside all their life. They are trained to come load in a truck or stay in the road when hounds get after the wrong game. They expect some shocking and shooting is about to commence and believe me they know from experience. So heavy deer running can and will mess up true broke dogs from doing their thing.

c) Think about it Mark, as you yourself said, there ain't a fox behind every bush, even in areas that are well stocked. If the majority of hounds have left out after deer or otherwise scattered because of deer races, that leaves only a few broke fox hounds to try and run a fox by thereself. Now granted I've seen days where two or three could really get down to business on a grey. But I've also seen days where the best pack couldn't hardly run him a couple hundred yards. There ain't many dogs out there can trail, jump, run and hold on to a grey fox long enough to get scored consistenly at these trials. It takes a good number of dogs to keep a fox up and moving and stay after him for some scoring to take place.

That's the reason the outside foxhunters are wanting something different. Everyone will agree that in recent years the national and other big outside hunts has gone to majority deer running and only sporadic fox running. The judges are tied up trying to sort through trash races and fox races get broke up instead of built up, etc. In year's past you have seen some folks like the Purvis and Barefoots bring a whole pack of exceptional fox hounds and end up winning or placing right many. But can you honestly say that the dogs that have been winning or placing consistently represent the best broke fox hounds in the country? No way! If your theory was right, born broke dogs would be winning right and left and everyone would be trying to get those dogs so they could do well in these hunts. You know that ain't the case. As it is, people are bringing hounds that run whatever hoping they stay in pockect and they get seen in the right fox or coyote race to get scored. If the system wasn't flawed they wouldn't be proposing something new for broke dog hunters.

Chris you had me in agreement until you said trash running dogs. I'm sick and tired of you fox hunters refering to my deer hounds and anyone's hounds that run a deer as a trash hound that is inferior to your gun shy electrified scared witless hounds that should stay on the track they are working to leave and run down a road cause they here 8 or 10 hounds running a deer. In the same breath you accept a hound that runs the easiest stinking smelly nastiest game there is and that's a coyote. I can take any ten of my hounds and run a grey to the ground or to the teeth. They can turn right around and do the same to a coyote and can make the hair on your head stand up on a deer race. I don't have any better hounds than any other hunter and I dare say that there are a bunch more on here that can do the same thing with there hounds.
I have to agree with hill city ad the fellow that stated fox hunters think they are better than every other hunter that runs trash running good for nothing deer with there hounds. I'm now done with this as I stated before if you want a true fox hound broke trial then make it fox and fox only offer the opportunity to score deer or scratch one or the other as before stated coyote are by far as much off game as deer will ever be. You are correct I don't run broke hounds but have owned true broke hounds and placed them. You can start a new association all you want if its not 100% broke its not true fox hunting. As far as a rule. Change bringing more hunters into the fold I see it as a separation. Just as the new pen rule is and has done you have a group that supports the pen rules and outside rules I do not and see it as a division. When the meetings turn into big mouth hotheads spouting out insults cause they are not getting there way at somebody like me who don't send e-mails to tell another hunter that voices there views and opinion that they agree with what was said. which may not be the most popular or by majority you will have successfully divided the running hounds of America. I have took a lot of flack because I say what I feel and mean what I say and ain't scared to vocalize my thoughts and opinion. BTW I AM HARD HEADED BUT I DON'T BACK DOWN OR JUST IGNORE. I am willing to listen be open minded and give anyone there chance. Now I'm going to go turn my trash .running deer hounds out so I can watch em hunt hear them trail pick out which hound is trailing and who jumps listen to them rock and role and if they make a loss see hear and or watch which one makes the pick-up and have a grand ole time.JUST SAYING

1 thing I forgot to mention is the broke though hunts are considered by invitation only that alone speaks for itself that by invitation only you are set aside and a group of your own. that is an insult in itself as I see it who in there right mind would bring a deer hound to a trial where the hounds are going to get scratched for running deer that's all I got to say

"Trash" simply means off game. It is relative to whatever game you are intending to run. To a rabbit hunter, fox would be trash. Don't take it to mean that the hounds doing the trash running are in any way less than the hounds not doing it. But, at a field trial you should be able to define what game you intend to run before hand and hold all the hounds accountable for running game outside that definition.
Wolf and coyotes have long been considered proper game for foxhounds to run in the Western reaches of the foxhunting community. That was accepted way back in the early days of organized field trialing. So, I don't think it holds much water to say that coyotes are off game. That was settled about 100 years ago. As I said, what constitutes "proper" game is decided on by the hunter who is casting the hounds or by the group of hunters that get together to hold a competition.
The rules ought to accommodate all hunters and all groups who use American Foxhounds to chase game. Whether they want to score or scratch hounds for running red fox, grey fox, coyotes, deer, bobcat, etc. ought to be up to the associations. The only thing standing in the way is the notion that every hunt in every corner of land should be run exactly the same so that the CH on the papers mean the same thing. I never put any stock in that notion either becuse most hunters know that all hunts are not created equal. The Virginia State Ch, Texas State Ch, USO Ch, etc. do not all mean the same thing. The CH reflects the ideals of the hunters who incorporated the hunt and who keep it going year after year. We have always accepted variation in the length of a hunt. As long as you run at least 5 hours a day for 3 days you fit the mold. Well, a hunt could choose to run 10 hours a day for 5 straight days, take a day off and run 2 more days and as best I can tell that would be OK by the National rules.

Marc......long as I can remember if our rabbit dogs was running ANYTHING BESIDES A RABBIT, THEY WERE RUNNING TRASH....it's got nothing to do with a good pack of deer dogs, it's a figure of speech. I like to hunt with a good pack of deer dogs as much as the next man. BUT...when you are deer hunting with a group of men [and all is wanting to kill deer and hear a good deer chase] and your deer dogs run the hair off some nice ol'ladies 20 lb. yellow tabby lookin' house cat and tree him in her front yard....GUESS WHAT....they are running TRASH! GET IT NOW?

John Foster

**** John, Here comes another long thesis....lol

Sometimes you call a spade, a spade. What happens when my fox dogs run a bobcat? LMAO!!!!Scratch 'em!!!

Mark, listen this wasn't a personal attack on you...I don't do such things especially not on a computer. As the others have clearly stated from a foxhunters point of view, deer running is trash. I would also venture to say that for most of us foxhunters coyote is also trash as is coon, rabbit, or anything other than a grey fox. It don't mean your hounds are "trash" or that my hounds are any better than anyone else's. Outside foxhunters are some of the most genuine and humble people I know. My hounds look like a million bucks some days and other days look like sorry potlickers. Such is the nature of dogs. But if I'm going to fox hunt a deer is trash! Plain and simple. And if an outside foxhound hunt is being held under national rules they don't score on deer races for a reason--TRASH. I respect anyone who has a good pack of hounds and enjoy taking their dogs hunting for whatever type of game they want to hunt. All I was trying to do was clearly refute the idea that you repeatedly brought up in this thread that if the judges would just do their job, born broke dogs would be winning every time! I pointed out the flaws and based on your response you agree. Now we're on the same page either score or scratch for deer running and let the association decide which they want to do. That way a true foxhound hunt could be had once again.

Oh and by the way, if you can take any ten hounds in your pack and catch, tree, or hole every fox you get after then I am certainly jealous of you!

Don't be jealous of me or my hounds they are no better than the next pack but they get run (when health allows it.) On a regular basis and outside not inside that makes a difference because I watch and look and listen to every one of em I can tell you who is in front who is trailing and how good the track is to the hound and who jumps it. The ones that don't cut it get cut and some that do cut it still get cut. I keep a record of it and that's where I go for making a cross. I have ran like this for near 25 years with the exception of preparing for a hunt or health don't allow the difficulties of the outside. Then I run in a pen or in some cases convenience.
Hears my issue. I hate the fact that it is next to impossible to find a good pen in eastern or central NC that's not loaded with coyotes. I feel 100% they are ruining the hounds that are being ran. However if I want to compete at the level it takes today I have to have hounds that can and Will run coyotes. I ran two weeks ago with some young hounds that I am getting in shape to see what they have. These pups are 3 and 4 generations of breeding I have worked on for several years making anticipated crosses that I feel will get the job done. They got after a coyote and ran it for several hours we had no idea that's what they were running as we were in a huge block of woods and to be honest they ran like they were running a smart cunning buck trying to throw them on the road as he made several passes at the road but would not cross it. This varmit would not cross the road. The longer the hounds ran the harder and better it got. Just before dark they were tight enough the yote came out as we were moving he saw us turned and went back into the same block. By this time it was on strong and them young hounds took him down about 30 minutes later. Now I'm going through the same thing I have had to do many times over and that's break up fights in my pen. Every-time I get puppies running strong enough to grab something and they grab a yote they think hey if I can woop that thing I can fight anything. The coyotes are a nuisance they kill your deer population and are nothing more than a varmit.
Running one on the outside is exciting because of the fast pace and the build up to the catch of course If you enjoy hearing a good race who wouldn't enjoy 12 to 15 month old hounds doing that???? running that hard and strong making your heart pound to see what will happen and what they are running. The Thing is its taking away from the full aspect of running which is watching what hound is doing what and so on.
As far as in a pen when you run into a place where there is a yote by every tree you don't get the opportunity in watching the hounds work and it makes going back on the outside harder. If the yotes were not dominating the pens I could care less if I ever ran another one. Everyone I get after I will put all I got into running it to the dirt the less their are the better.
With the new pen rule now if you are not top five speed and drive you can give up getting into top 5 HGA unless your 1st or 2nd hunting and or trailing and trailing is so scarce that most associations don't bother with the trophies or put them out for show. Even still I am forced to accept it because Its the way the rules are now and if I want to run trials I have to tolerate the habits brought on by running yotes. So if I'm accepting coyotes and a twisted new rule that has inverted the field then why cant the fox hunters accept the deer.
Let me say this I see your point and can agree on your objective I just feel that as I just said if fox hunters want to pursue a fox broke field ch. It should be just that FOX BROKE .
The reason that will never happen is because the last 10 or 15 years coyotes have exploded in population size. They haven't been around and accepted for a 100 years. They are the cause of the dwindling fox. It's not trappers as I saw an argument on here about. Now it seems as it was in the past with fox pens when there were only fox in them if you don't have coyotes to run then the running breaks down and the hounds gets scratched for loafing or they get in this issue get after deer. If it were not for yote running there would be lower scores and hounds would have to earn what they get. Hunters would stop going because of the expense only to have your hound scratched. Because the ease of running in a pen casting hounds and going back home to sleep and not worrying about roads cars etc has made some lazy or complacent with pens.
I know I said I was done but the response was directed at me. For the record if you don't like my "thesis" don't read em. I do not care and your poor humour and LMAO post do not intimidate me nor will it stop me from speaking my mind.
Lastly its alwaYs been and I don't see a change that broke fox hounds are considered superior hounds to a deer hound. BECAUSE some think that because a mutt can run a deer down and catch it anything can. The point mist is the mutts are chasing food just as a coyote or pack of coyotes will run a deer down for food.
I got it let's get a bunch of coyotes teach them to be friendly and put numbers on them and have coyote deer trials. LOL.
I will agree that a natural born broke hound is a better hound than one that has to be broke. I see a hound that started on fox say in a puppy pen with grey only or reds. I prefer grey to start puppies on and refuse to take a puppy to a pen full of yotes until I see them at an age ready to be trialed or if they have what it takes on the outside to hunt a track look for a loss and pick it up rather than just keep running to the next game or taking off to another race a mile away.good grief I hate that as much as anything and can not stand to see a hound throw away a good track because there is a race a mile away. That's what a pen full of coyotes does to hounds when they are ran constantly on them in pens.
If you start hounds on fox only and turn em loose on the outside there objective should be to get after what they have been trained or started on. If the hounds the first time they smell a deer track they automaticly start running them and have to be broke they are simply a deer hound that's been scared out of running deer. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but that's how I see it.
Just calling it the way I see it now all the funny guys can make all the stupid little remarks that make you feel so good about yourself being you are compensating in other areas you come up short in and where things are simply to small and round and you have to cough up smart remarks to make you think maybe the twins will grow by insulting ones opinion.
As far as equal and for all to enjoy the same thing its not that way it is by vote and as I see it its a pretty close split. The speed demons wanted credit so W was added to the winning s & d hound. That wasn't good enough now the field is split pen rules outside rules national rules masters rules..Next deer rules fox coyote rules. When is the splitting gonna stop and neutral boundaries set. Get back your fundamentals of running hounds. Also I have hate point all along its not that difficult to figure out. As far as the trash game yeah got that to the only thing is its no secret a lot goes into breaking hounds off deer if their not born true broke. And its been said all along fox only hounds are better than deer hounds and I also agree to that for a born broke hound. Who ever stated coytes were accepted for a 100 years 40 years ago their were very few deer and no coyotes now ,the deer population is large and so Is the coyote my entire thesis is revolving around what game will improve the breeding of running hounds and as I see it coyotes will never improve the breeding. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
If the rule change addresses the scratch or score how to go about it and details so there are no questionable category issues I could o with it. I know NC will be the first to jump on board and go with scratch rule which its going to cut me out for good. Just saying I do not agree with scoring on yotes if you are not scoring deer. And claiming a true broke.fox hound ch.

I don't have a dog in this fight but if you were a hound Marc, I would cut you for babbling. You also bark at a lot of trash like your hounds do. I like one that gives a lot of tongue but sometimes there can be too much of anything.

Tim Cherry

For the life of me, I dont understand the problem. If your association is barely afloat now, why switch to the other (new)set of rules. Alvin is NOT trying to set the gospel for ALL field trials, simply broke dogs hunts. If you're a deer hunter or a pen racer, why bother giving you're bias opinion? It wont affect you. To the man that said foxhunters are for themselves... its because they have to deal with folks like you. I'm sorry man, I dont mean to single you out but You're telling the Foxhunters how to hunt, but have never foxhunted? Who are you to say that a Foxhunter shouldn't enjoy an annual get together get himself a trophy? 10 years from now when Bubba Casper or any other man for that matter has won a few of these trials, and has a set papers with multiple sets of broke dog CH in front of the names. That is my friends is making the breed better, which is what this is supposed to be all about.

Everyone is so afraid its gonna affect their piece of the pie. Whats the problem with crowning a broke dog champion? Is belittling to the guys that dont have broke dogs? Makes since to me that if FOXHOUND is in the title to atleast acknowledge the work these guys put forth.

Does anyone here realize (correct me if I'm wrong) that Alvin is trying for an ADDENDUM, Not a rule change? Yes that means in addition to and EVERY ASSOCIATION COULD CHOOSE WHAT SIDE OF THE FENCE TO BE ON.

Marc, since your dogs are unbroke and you have no preference as to what in the heck they run, what difference does it make to you when there is already rules set forth to fit YOUR style of hunting?

Good post Rooster

I get have got every point stated for the record I at one time was starting a pack of broke dogs for outside trials. But you could not go to a pen and run just fox. I had male and female broke natural and started getting puppies to break or keep the true broke ones. I decided it was not worth the time When all the pens went to full blown coyotes every where.majority hunts are pens now. I feel as strongly as alvin does on better hounds and for the life of me can not see or believe coyotes are going to better the breed just as some don't think deer hounds will. I opted to just for having no other choice to run coyote to go with it and still do. All I am saying is if you want to make an addendum for scratched hounds on deer and show 10 years from now broke fox ch. Then make it broke dogs. Coyotes are as much trash as any game there is to run.5 years from now it will be just As it is with pens. The true broke fox hound will under current rules beat the high s/d and then there will be yet another rules change that want be good enough so the yote hound can win. A true broke fox only hound will never get the s/d scores that the hounds running coyotes will. It's been an issue since they loaded pens with them. It's an issue now and will be an issue in the future. Do the way you want but don't be condemning me because I speak my mind I don't insult no one to express a point so the true babblers are the mouths putting someone down for expressed concerns that is history repeating itself. point taken point said I'm done .BTW I don't own a hound that's any better than any other hound that gets run hard and has a chance to show what they can do when left to run outside. Never said I did nor will.

Marc I see that you say coyotes will never improve the breed.

Do you think that a hound can be born broke that will only run yotes?
Well I will answer that one for you, YES they can and they are.
There is an old line of grade dogs here that have been bred for around 70 years that some of them are born broke for coyotes, not all of them but some.
I had some back in the 80's that where born broke and I took them to a fox only pen in MO.

I took 4 of them and 2 would not run a fox. They came back to the fire and curled up and went to sleep.

The old timers around here that have hunted with these dogs for around 50 years say that the dogs that are running today are better than the ones of years ago.
That to me says that they have improved on yotes, because that is all we can run here.

I would suppose any hound can and will run what they are used to running started on and prefer. I can not say I have ever seen a broke coyote hound and probably would not keep one if I had one. Unless the time arises I turn to running broke outside hounds. I do have a dog in this fight as I have some hounds that are out of broke stock that prefer running fox. If the opportunity arises to run an outside trial I would take them. As to your question can't give an answer as I've never seen one nor do I think I would keep one.IN retrospect is it possible the hounds were so used to the stink of a yote and that's all they run and were used to the twisting turning fox and scent was not the hounds cup of tea where as the other hounds running were able to split the track and go turn for turn?? . If I come across one or more you can have em. Also I am not sure where you are referring to as your hunting grounds. I would say out west as there have been coyotes out there longer than here. If that's all you got to run more power to you. The thing that's got me is all this broke fox dog and what is construed as trash. If I were older I would say the hunters of 50 years past and some current would say coyotes are trash. Not the best at anything just going by experience. In this area a hounds got to be willing to burn the thickets and swamp holes to run anything here. It is not uncommon for a hound to come out of the woods looking like there ears and face have been through a meat grinder with blood pouring out of there ears and no hair around there eyes and legs looking like they took a beating from whip of glass shards.

Marc, since your dogs are unbroke and you have no preference as to what in the heck they run, what difference does it make to you when there is already rules set forth to fit YOUR style of hunting?[/quote]

Rooster the rules do affect me. NC will be the first to go to this rule. I feel the concept is great just not .100% for foxhounds I would love to breed the hounds bloodline I have that have shown to be natural broke hounds on fox and have two letters of pups that were possibly going to try but not at the expense of having to deal with coyote hounds on outside. might as well keep running whatever on the outside hit the pens a few times before a hunt and run for fun. As far as new pen rule the results I've seen with full results . for this year and or the few hunts I've run the top 5 s/d hounds now are the winning. The hounds with first hunting starts at 5th skips around and your lucky if 5 hunting hounds make HGA EVEN THE HUNTING HOUNDS THAT ARE WITHIN STRIKING. DISTANCE OF TOP TEN S/D. My aspect of the best hound at a trial is any hound that can finish in the top 20-25 % speed and drive and puts up hunting and or trailing is the best hound. Also for the record I did not agree that a hound that had a hunting score and 200 points speed and drive should win either when the high speed and drive is 800 or more points. The winning hound should atleast be in the 600 or better score. In all reality with the high scores today if a hound gets in a thicket on a fox and stays in there a while he will loose 200 or more points. So in all likely hood could easily have been in the top 10. I have had the opportunity to judge in fox only pens.as well as coyote filled pens so I have seen both sides. I run hounds primarily outside so if there on a piece of game and drop it over run it etc they are supposed to look that game not drop it and run to the closest bark. It's the same on the outside with running yotes and fox you are gonna loose scores if you are running fox preferred hounds ie hounds prefer fox over yotes or deer the coyote hounds will put up big speed and drive and get beat by a true foxhound who works the track loosing s/d points but gaining hunting points. Eventually the s/d will want the pen rule for outside. And once the mind set is in motion they will get there way like they did with the pen rule. The W wasn't good enough they have inverted the HGA aspect so that a hound can run from game to game never put his nose to the ground or for that matter jump anything just run run run and they get crowned ch. I would have thought the foxhunter would be looking away to modify this rule to make it so the best hound wins. That being any hound with hunting scores and in top 25 % s/d to top or even top 10. Not the case it seems the pen running has struck outside as well and that no matter where you field trial all that matters is how fast a hound can get to the front run a short distance in the lead fall out of the race and go to another race. Happens over and over. So any rule affects me and any other houndsman who wants to run an outside trial but had a not necessarily 100% broke hound. The only true broke hound is pure born broke. That's where the hounds are gonna be better. If you run pen hunts you have to run yotes if outside same thing so either way all are affected unless it is set back to whaT the founders of FOXHUNTERS ESTABLISHED 100 YEARS AGO AND THAT'S RUNNING FOX.........thanks for asking rather than bashing.

1) This has been happening forever. That is the wrath of FOXPENS in general. The cause of that is people breed solely for speed, no hunt and introduce them to a foxpen field trial where 75% do the same thing.

2)I agree, main reason is above. see # 1.

3) HUH????????? "the only true broke dog is the natural born broke" ????????????????????????????????
I have dabble in this mess too long. The Hoggard boys in NC have some of these best foxdogs around. HANDSDOWN! Their catch ratio represents my statement. Their dogs arent born broke, but they can NATURALLY RUN THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF A PIECE OF GAME. They have to break them. But their dogs will adapt to the conditions and game/terrain they're running. I would take a puppy from them in a heartbeat, no questions asked, over any born broke puppy or litter you have raised. Not trying to sound chitty either. Breaking a dog off un-desired game is about 25% of the issue. I want a breed of dogs that have and will damage the population, and have a reputation for it. I do agree with you that the fox /coyote trash thing. I cant stand stand the varmits and shot the gun over mine when they ran them. BUT, I will adapt, I know some of the Foxhunters (strictly fox) get after a Yote, he's in just a much trouble as that fox is.

Also to add to your statement a couple posts back about a foxdog not getting the scores on Yotes because the Yote dogs are pumping the life out him...That works the other way around too. A dog that prefers a Yote over a fox will not like the thick ground as much and will not get the scores a foxdog will get on a fox.

One more thing those guys out west have been running Yotes for 100 years. They're are still foxhounds (the registered ones) but a certain breed fits their style of hunting. The "trash running" term you keep refering to is in the eye of the beholder. But NO MATTER how you look at it, a DEER IS ALWAYS TRASH, unless you're a deerhunter....

IF YOUR DOG WAS REALLY BROKE OFF DEER. BORN DEER PROOF OR TRAINED DEER PROOF IT SHOULD NOT MATTER IF TEN TO FIFTEEN HEAD ARE RUNNING A DEER. YOUR BROKE DOG SHOULD STILL BE LOOKING A FOX. AND YOU SHOULD HAVE THE UPPER HAND. THE JUDGES THAT ARE INVITED TO JUDGE THESE WELL ESTABLISHED HUNTS ARE MORE THEN LIKELY FAMILIAR WITH A FOX RACE VERSUS A DEER RACE. HE OR SHE SHOULD KNOW THE DIFFRENCE THE WAY THE HOUNDS ARE COURSED. I DONT UNDERSTAND THE TENSION BETWEEN EVERY BODY. I TOKE A PEN DOG TO THE NC STATE HUNT BEFORE THEY STOPPED IT IN LOURINBURG. I GOT DOTS CLEAR ACROSS THE BOARD. ENDED UP PLACING THAT PEN DOG IN THE TOP TEN HGA. WITH SECOND IN HUNTING. FIRST TIME EVER OUT OF WIRE. INSIDE OR OUTSIDE IT SHOULDNT MATTER. IF YALL KEEP FIGHTING ABOUT IT YOUR GONNA BE SITTING AT HOME TALKING ABOUT HOW THIS ARGUMENT STOPPED YOUR FOX HUNTING INSTEAD OF HOW MUCH OF A GOOD TIME YOU HAD YESTERDAY HUNTING. DELT WEST SAID IT BEST FOX DEER AND WOMEN ALL MUST BE FROM HELL TO CAUSE THIS MUCH DRAMA BETWEEN GROWN MEN AND FRIENDS. PATTERSON

Maybe this is off topic (like a lot of the above posts) but just for perspective I wanted to mention some hound hunting history.

Several hundred years ago the wealthy men in the red coats over in England bred hounds to run deer or stag. The deer population got just about wiped out. The men wanted to keep running hounds because they loved it. They switched from stag to red fox.
Later on, men on the newly colonized American continent got some of those hounds and started running them over here on fox. Not red fox. Red fox populations in America were either very small or non existant. So, they ran grey fox. The Americans breed the hounds to the point were they were very effective at running down the greys. About this time the red fox population starts to explode most likely due to imports from England. As the red fox expand their range from the Eastern shore of Maryland and Virgina the houndsmen start to breed back toward red fox running. Meanwhile, houndsmen out in Texas and Oklahoma and other "western" states are running their hounds on brush wolves or coyotes.
The Eastern houndsmen have always been suspicious about running coyotes. Some of them accepted it and some never did. The fact is the "foxhound" has been used to run coyotes for a long time and I guess it is up to each man to decide whether that was a benefit to the foxhound breed or whether it hurt.

Now, we have hounds that carry the blood of the early European stag hounds, the grey fox hounds, the red fox hounds, and the wolf hounds. They all came from the same breeding stock. Some strains we have today are better on one type of game or another. Some hounds run all this game equally well (or equally poor).

I don't know if any of that means anything to anybody but sometimes I think it is helpful to remember that the first "foxhunters" considered the red fox to be "trash" until they were forced to run them because the stag was hunted to near extinction.

when you judged in laurinburg...did any deer races hurt the field trial...did anyone break them up?...you can have a foxhunt when broke dogs outway the deer dogs 80/20....but you cant have a field trial on fox when the deer dogs outweigh the foxdogs 80/20....thats the simple reason a lot refuse to go to a field trial...these hunts have regained interest and support from hunters in thier 70's and such....and they're foxhunters first...but willing to partisipate..but they're not subjecting thier hounds to everyones deer dogs to win a trophy...for the most part...we could have these hunts without trophies...and the winning hounds would still be bred too ...but I would like to look at a set of papers 10 years from now and know how a hound won a hunt...there are hunts that represent a pen hound well,there are series of deer hound trials..and the best of the best trial to represent this areas best deer hounds,...why shouldnt hunters like the barefoots,william earl cruze [who won the s/d in the fut],and a lot more hunters that choose not to run thier hounds with deerdogs..not be allowed a chance to compete,and pick what they want to breed to...the way these hunts are designed...if you aint got a broke dog...why should they concern you,if you aint got a broke dog...come enjoy the fellowship and leave your hounds home....everyone that doesnt believe broke dogs exist...needs to leave thier dogs home and come to one and enjoy a hunt without deer hounds present

I go back to my post if the judges are doing there job not scoring deer races and if a hound IS truly broke no amount of deer races will matter. And I speak from experience. Bought a hound one of only a few that I have ever bought and first time 2nd time I cast him outside I was ready to give him lead poisoning he wouldn'trun with my deer hounds. Every-time I cast him as soon as hounds jumped he hit the road. Then Instead of catching him and re-cast to the hounds I decided to let him go. After a time or two I saw a pattern that being he was natural born broke. All he wanted to run was fox. I started casting him alone he would jump fox. For several years I enjoyed getting a fox or coyote race and have some offspring that have turned out the same. Had a femAle born broke bred the two got a couple that are broke. I cast them with whatever I'm running they will jump a fox while the others will jump a deer or with them. Got a male that will jump and run a deer but come across a fox and its on drops the deer and hamers the fox and at times yotes. So with the rules as they are a true broke fox hound should get scored while the deer hounds get ignored. I don't see the problem unless of your saying the outside field judges are scoring deer. JUST SAYING...

At most outside hunts it is 90% deer hounds and 10% broke dogs if that much.

I check 10 races a day and only one is on a fox, I have wasted a lot of time and money trying to find the dogs running the right game.

Not much fun if your a judge.

Yes this has happens to me time and time again. I will not score a dog running a deer unless it is a hunt that everyone has been told we are scoring on deer then it is game on.

just guessing..but i expect more get scored than not...just like your question ..if they didnt...why would they bring them....

I thought alot about the whole deal to on the rule change and was all for the change but after more thought and reading HILL CITYS (CHRIS) paragraph my mind has suddenly changed. I guess sometimes you need to hear more besides your own thoughts.

Alvin,here in central Virginia we have five outside field trials a year (National Affiliated) we do have some deer running at these trials ,we also have lots of fox and yote running, we do not score on deer.My biggest concern on the rule change would be we barely have enough money at two of these hunts to keep them going,if the rule were changed to scratch on deer i dont think we could stay above water.
To many associations would fold up if that rule went into affect. However im on board if the Chase would have a set of rules to make a champion at a broke dog hunt. Im all for broke dog hunts i have been to them and have judged them.They are lots of fun.
If the association has a choice to use the rule to scratch or not i think it going to cause alot of fuss at the meetings, some want it and some dont.
Wish there were more broke dog hunts up this way.GOOD LUCK

Suppose an association decided to scratch for running deer and advertised their hunt that way, then they lost money on the hunt due to lack of support. Wouldn't they just switch back to not scratching for deer running the next year to get the numbers back up? I don't see why they would fold up. It might not work in some areas and I'm sure a few associations will test the waters and fail but worst case scenario is everybody goes back to running their hunts the way they do now.