What rule change were they trying to get passed Bill ?

Why did it need to be submitted to the rules committee? I thought you could propose a change from the floor at the meeting.

Yea wat are they trying to change now? If anything needs to be changed the need to cut the amount of endurance they reward the speed n drive dog in half to a 8th. 25% is to much. Thts the only thing I see to change

The change is for a seperate set of rules allowing dogs to be scratched for running deer. This would be only for outside trials and then only if the association wanted it. You are right Heath, the rule change does not need to be sent to the rules committee. But, it appears that is what the majority wanted. I thought Alvin had sent it in to the committee but, he had not. It appears from what i have learned it will pass next year.

Good idea. I think those broke dog hunts could become real popular with the rules backing them up. I guess it is better to have a positive recommendation from the committee if you can get it.

THANKS FOR THE REPLIES. I THOUGHT IT WAS SENT TO COMMITTEE LAST YEAR BY ROSCOE AND WAS TABLED UNTIL THIS YEAR.

THE PROPOSAL WAS CHANGED. THEREFORE, THE NEW PROPOSAL HAD TO BE SUBMITTED TO THE RULES COMM. IT WAS DIFFERENT FROM LAST YEAR. THE VOTE WAS 43 TO 19 TO TABLE IT TIL NEXT YEAR WHERE IT CAN BE SUBMITTED TO THE RULES COMM.

I HAVE A QUESTION FOR ANYONE WHO CAN ANSWER IT!

HOW CAN YOU SCRATCH A 50 TO 100 HOUND DEER RACE?

I REALLY DO NOT SEE A FAIR WAY TO DO THAT WITHOUT 2 PEOPLE ON EACH SIDE OF THE CROSSING HOLDING VIDEO CAMERAS!

IM NOT TRYING TO GET IN ANY COMPUTER BATTLE. SO, PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS. THAT IS NOT MY INTENT.

daniel,thats the reason its wrote to put under associations...i know it wont work everywhere,and a lot of our areas are under 5000 acres and bordered by major highways...thats the reason i like grenada...if you covered the ground covered by hounds this week at the nationals in our area,dogs would be ran over,people would be indited for tresspassing,etc...most hunts would probally allow 5 hounds per membership,etc...on the hunts we've had so far...under 10 % have ran deer,141 to 186 hounds and about 6-10 have been scratched for running deer.

ALVIN, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BUT, IF THIS RULE PASSES THEN THESE HUNTS CANT BE INVITE ONLY ANYMORE. IF THEY ARE NATIONAL AFFILIATED THEN THEY ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. THAT LEAVES YOU MORE VULNERABLE TO DEER RUNNING THAN IN THE PAST HUNTS. THE NUMBER OF DEER RUNNERS WILL BE MUCH LARGER UNLIKE THE INVITE ONLY HUNTS. HOW WILL YOU SCRATCH LARGE NUMBERS OF HOUNDS RUNNING DEER? I KNOW YALL HAVE JUST AS MANY DEER IN NORTH CAROLINA AS ANYWHERE ELSE. EVEN IF YOU ADVERTISE DEER DOGS WILL BE SCRATCHED THE OPEN PUBIC WILL STILL BRING EM. I DO HOPE YALL CAN GET SOMETHING GOING THAT WORKS FOR YOU. IM JUST PUTTING THIS OUT THERE SO MAYBE SOMEONE HAS A SOLUTION BECAUSE IN MY OPINION THIS WILL BE A PROBLEM YOU WILL FACE IN THE FUTURE.

BEST OF LUCK TO YOU BOYS

daniel,i've had that thought out for a while...the first hunt would be a disaster !

but i think this would work ;
1..open hunt,5 hounds per membership,any year any new
hunters could join
2..if you get scratched out for running deer your not elligable for future hunts
3..if you ..say get 4 scratched for running deer you can get 1 number at the next hunt,3 you get 2,etc
4..any hunt you go through without getting one scratched for running deer,you gain an entry for the following hunt,the person thats down to 1 entry completes a hunt without getting a hound scratched for running deer would be elligable for 2 numbers at the next hunt .

if someone brought 5 broke hound,the next hunt he'd be elligable for 6,after the next hunt if none were scratched for running deer,that hunter would be elligable for 7,etc

it would take a couple years of this and we'd be back to straight hounds attending !

Alvin glad to see someone finally trying to get this done should have been done years ago. Also thanks for sinding me Jennie She is a fine looking hound can't wait to try her on these grey's around here Please tell Mr. Wooten thanks for selling me this fine looking hound. Robert Purtle

Alvin, if you are thinking on those terms you may want to ammend your rule change. As i get it your change only goes to scratching dogs for running deer and the rest of the rules remain the same. Number 1, under the present rules you cannot have an invitation only, you can't limit hound numbers by issueing a certain amount of numbers to certain people based on the previous hunt. The scratching of hounds remain the same criteria except for scratching for running deer. I think you have the support now for your rule change as it is. But, i don't know if that support will be there if you amend the change to incorporate what you stated in the previous post.

This rule change could be a great thing for our sport. It will give hunters an option as weather they want to go to a true fox field trial or to one that’s a little more liberal. I had the honor to judge the 2007 All American and it was there that I decided I would never judge another outside hunt until there was a rule change. We scratch dogs for running rabbits and livestock but are supposed to ignore hounds running deer. We need to either score or scratch hounds for running deer, both inside or outside the wire. How do you scratch 50 dogs running a deer, you scratch everyone you can for 3 days every hunt you go to and sooner or later the hunters will get the message! This rule change will not hurt field trialing it will promote it! This will open the door to a new group of hunters who feel they have been left out. This is about choices and should be considered by the rules committee. The National and Chase have a choice either make changes or cease to exist. We may not like change but it is coming. For me it dose not matter, for I am where I belong on the outside running grey foxes. You are all welcome to come drag me around anytime you want to. Just an Old Fat Mans Opinion!!
PS Alvin I agree with Barry on the invitation issue.

With regard to how you scratch a 50-100 dog deer race:
Just like earlier posts said, you scratch as many as you can that are guilty. Some might get missed but you just have to accept that there are hounds that slip through that are deserving to be scratched for various offenses at every trial and you can't get them all. Hopefully before the three days are over all the guilty ones will get seen and scratched.

I would add that the judge should be careful not to go wild and scratch every number seen at the site of the deer race. I think most hounds will check in on a deer race or a rabbit race and try to find the scent of the fox that they think the other hounds are running. Better be as sure as possible that the hound is actually running the deer before scratching.

I think it could be good, but needs to be more specific. Do not want or need that option in our area. The Proposal needs to clearly specify "the State of North Carolina, Kentucky, Virginia, etc... We don't want it even an option at Grenada, Florida, or South MS. Entries are sinking every year as it is for the big hunts, if this new proposal passes as is, the majority could choose to make the bigger hunts deer broke rule. This would drop the entry #'s at least by half. What have you accomplished winning the National with 100 dogs there, I would be just as excited winning the local county open. Get more specific and you'll get my support.
As I said in the other post about this, I will help in any way I can, will help push it if it protects us that are still able to hunt large areas of land, but until then I cant go with you guys.

Bird, you know Mississippi aint gonna use such an option, you know the National or All American directors are not gonna use such an option. Hell, the majority of the National run anything with hair on it. The All American directors don't even want it on the outside. Get real!!!!

I see it for the next 5 years not affecting us at all, but directors, presidents, secretaries, and board members change through time.

I'm all for yalls rule, yall deserve it, and I will vote for it if I know it won't hurt me 5 years from now. You know I'm open minded for anything that I think will improve a situation for a group of individuals. This one just worries me down the road.

I sent in a written rule change request last year to the National Fox Hunters Association Secretary, Ms. Nancy Verling. I followed it up with a phone call to Ms. Verling to acknowledge that she had received my request and to acknowledge that I had followed proper protocol. I also confirmed that my request had been forwarded to the National's rule committee members.

As I understood, the rules committee saw my request as clearly written, well thought out, and adhering to the goals and objectives of the National Foxhunters Association, "for the development and improvement of the foxhound, and encourage judicious breeding". I even sent in examples of what the changes would look like in the rule book, using before and after examples.

I was pleased to here the positive news from the RULES COMMITTEE because I had been working on this document for a long time. I had even started making notes at years past NCFHA trails, while sitting in my truck, frustrated and disgusted as I watched deer race after deer race, near miss cars accidents, good hounds getting run over on bad hiways. I also watch with great disgust on day 2 and 3 of these trials the same deer dogs getting turned loose again with no way of eliminating or scratching them.

I had received a lot of help perparing, tweeking, producing a final document from forks of the creek foxhunters and businessmen. I even received about 200 foxhunters signatures of support and a letter of support from the NCFHA.

On October 27, 2010 during the N.F.H.A membership meeting, rules committee chairman Henry Dean Gray brought up my rule change request, "scratch for running deer", for discussion and a possible vote. Alvin Barrow, made some supporting comments.

As I understand, after limited discussion the request was tabled until the 2011 meeting date. Members needed a little more time to wrap their arms around the idea and read the details of the request published in the Nov. 2010 issue of the Chase magazine.

Long story short, this is what I submitted in 2010:
1. a rule change to give national affiliated association's the option to use the scratch for running deer rule.
2. a rule change that requires an association that is going to use the scratch for running deer rule to advertised in the Chase magazine, "hounds will be scratched for running deer".
3. a rule change that list all the requirements for a field judge to scratch a hound for running deer

Hopefully it will pass next year, I would be happy to work on a rule change committee if that is what needs to take place.

Thank you for the work you have put into this proposal. The fox hunting world has changed beyond recognition in the short 35 years that I've been running hounds.
The 'neither score nor scratch' compromise was, in all probability necessary and workable when it was written. The proliferation of both deer and highways now make it a major obstacle to an outside hunt in almost any area of North America.
In addition, countless hours of judges' time have been lost checking out races that can neither be scored nor scratched and hundreds of hunting and trailing scores have been awarded on game that officially doesn't exist.
It's good that the original option still exists for those who desire it. Hound owners can determine for themselves which type of hunt they prefer to attend. The rule change would finally provide an option.
One last point -- I believe this option should be open to pen hunts as well as outside hunts. Some pens have significant deer populations that bounce in and out of the enclosures.
For those who don't wish to see a fox hound ch. crowned by running, hunting for or trailing up deer, or to see a broke hound scratched for FTH or loafing for shunning a deer race, this would be a most welcome addition to the rule book.
Best of luck.

I think this would be a great rule change. I also think that should be the rule for all outside hunts .We have FOXHOUNDS we are at a FOXHOUND field trial not a fox and deer trial.
How many of you have judged on the outside and busted your butt to get to a race and you cant score the hounds because they are running a deer.
I know the biggest concern will be a low number of hounds entered at trials,but maybe we will pick a true FOXHOUND. Anyone who has never been to a broke dog trial needs to attend one.
JUST MY OPINION. GOOD LUCK.

WOW! I C THE TIME CHANGE KEPT SOME OF U UP ALL NIGHT. I'M PROUD OF ALL THE HARD WORK PUT FOURTH BY EVERYBODY, BUT IN THE END I'M GONNA LOAD MINE UP PUSH BUTTONS, POP CAPS, HOOT, HOLLA, RAISE HELL, CATCH FOXES, AND ENJOY MYSELF ON ONE OF THESE OLD COUNTRY DIRT ROADS WITH MY FRIENDS! HAPPY HUNTING TO EVERYONE! POLITICS AINT MY THING.

Well the USO should be able to go back to laurinburg then, 50 dogs shouldn't be a problem

I guess the ones that have doubt could care less if they had a fox dog or a deer dog...I guess you can keep it like it is and have a deer dog champion!!! I am with Matt...rather run and catch cat and fox anyway....I guess since I have never made a dog a field champion there is no need to start now...but it seems like some where in the rules it says if a dog is worthy of being a foxhound champion in there some where...if he runs deer...HECK NO!! Have fun anyway...