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| Viewing Page 1 of 1 (Total Posts: 80) |
| Author | Comment |
Bill Blake
 Oct 7, 08 - 1:33 PM |
Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
I don't have a problem with what type of hunting people prefer. I just enjoy hearing hounds run. I saw a comment that a outside hunter made. "wonder how people with great hounds run in a pen for hours and don't catch the game, like their hounds are better on the outside because they catch game more often. In a pen that game is conditioned just like the hounds, he is prepered and conditioned, knows the pen and when really tired knows where to go. On the outside that game you are running may have never been ran, not prepared and runs to exaustion in a hurry. Maybe I am wrong, but two different pieces of game you are after. Everyone has their opinions, but I have done both and now prefer the pen because of lack of places to hunt on the outside. Have had just as great running hounds doing both. Just wanted to hear opinions of others! |
Kyle Stotesberry
Oct 7th, 2008 - 1:43 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
You make it sound so easy to catch game on the outside. |
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demonta washington(fatcat kennels)
Oct 7th, 2008 - 1:51 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
YOU BEAT ME TO IT KYLE.GOOD POST 
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JASON BROWN
Oct 7th, 2008 - 2:31 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
most people that run a fox in a pen couldnt run a fox on the outside 50 yards. its just different. i run in pen. and i know i couldnt. to much turning on the outside. in the pen they run in line and there are aready paths for the dogs to run on. in the wild the game makes alot of it up as he goes. im not a fox hunter just my opinion. i have been dusted by foxes on the outside and run them down in the pen. |
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JFerrell/Raintree Kennels
Oct 7th, 2008 - 2:32 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Kyle, Me and Marlowe were talking about it and he must have been running some of those Williamston Hounds. .
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Don Stanaland
Oct 7th, 2008 - 6:46 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Mr Blake, many of the above points are very correct but the main reason why game survives in a pen even with really good hounds running it is because of the amount of game in the pens. It is very, very, common for hounds to switch off the game they have ran for a while. In a pen there is so much game that the hounds that have been thrown out or they may just be behind and they get after another one and then when the main pack makes a loose they hear the others running and they hark to them. This is the reason the pen owners keep the pens filled up so much is to make the hounds switch off and give the game a rest. I have seen a pack of hounds running game and when they cross they may be after two or three coyotes and they sometimes split and divide the pack up. Also, as another writer said, the game in pens are very smart about loosing hounds, they have been run again and again, they know how to squat and double back, hit a road and run down it and turn back the same way they were coming from, run into a bunch of other coyotes that have not been running to get the hounds after another, etc. Just a couple of reasons but they are valid and they do preserve the game.
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bryant brantley/break'em down kennels
Oct 7th, 2008 - 9:13 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Same way when we run mature bucks in our club Don, they know how to loose a pack of dogs or run circles in a block trying to find some does to throw the dogs off on. |
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Brad Cowan
Oct 7th, 2008 - 9:41 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Don,a fox on the outside often does the same things you mentioned in your last paragraph.Its not that they know so much how to get away from a pack of hounds,the pack just has to know enough about how to run a ducking,squatting fox.I have run and caught countless foxes on the outside and I have run them in pens on occasion and I can honestly say a fox on the outside is a heck of alot harder to run.I have caught foxes in pens(not intentionally)with deer hounds and I can guarantee them sorry fools cant catch one on the outside. |
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John Foster
Oct 8th, 2008 - 7:19 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Mr. Blake, the man who hunts outside of the wire must have hounds that do not run deer. This includes turning down the (peer pressure) of other hounds who do run deer that they will come into contact with on the outside........There is a lot more to a good foxhound (and rabbit dog) than not running deer, but it sure is a start.......a foxhunter, (or rabbit hunter), that allows his dogs to run off game, wont be doing it for long. John Foster |
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Bill Wright
Oct 8th, 2008 - 8:43 AM |
Re: john foster
hey John, enjoyed the oysters, after deer season, ya'll rabbit hunt all our club land you want. i very rarely reply on here but I want to add what you and ol'man Fitchett told those boys at big boy's last weekend....you can't tree a coon, you can't tree a grey fox or catch him, and you can't circle a rabbit back to the gun if your dogs are running deer. -bill |
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ed whittington skidrow kennels
Oct 8th, 2008 - 8:46 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
i think its all in what u like inside/outside i respect both. if i went on the outside i would get my but handed to me.in the pen i can hold my own.lol skid  
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Jeff Thornton
Oct 8th, 2008 - 9:08 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
I always find it amusing that Pen hunters are always trying to justify Pen hunting as equal to or better than running on the outside. Enjoy what you are able to do. Pen Hunting is a totally different animal than hunting on the outside. Anyone that has foxhunted for any amount of time and done both will tell you that hunting on the outside takes a different type of hound than what is field trialed in the pens. True some good hounds can do both but not many. I have done both and know for a fact that I had hounds that were raised in Pens and eventually made good outside hounds but they had a steep learning curve the ones that made it. But I have seen way way to many that could never handle the thick bushes down here around the swamp. I no longer hunt now because there is no where outside decent to hunt and I said I would quit if I had to run in Pens exclusivly. I am not hunting now and pen hunters are. Enjoy your pen hunting because you are what is keeping the sport alive. They have already just about ended the outside hunting in most places so enjoy it while you can and quit trying to justify it. They are not the same, it is a ridiculous argument. |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 8th, 2008 - 11:53 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Jeff, It is indeed a ridiculous argument to say that running outside and running in a pen are the same. Some times, on certain game with a certain number of hounds on certain terrain they can be very close. Other times -- a world of difference. That's not the point. Sorry you took it that way. Also, it never was, or is, my intention to say that pen hounds and hunting is superior to outside hunting. Pen hounds face a steadier pounding. On the whole, they need to be gamer and tougher. However, outside hounds face roads, yard dogs, off-game and the fact that if they throw a chase away, it can be a VERY long time before they get another one started. Some people will prefer one kind of hound, some another. The fact that you know it's the learning curve, not innate ability, that hinders most pen hounds once you take em outside, tells me you've actually done both. You are right. It's almost like starting over from scratch when you take em outside -- fences, roads and off-game being the biggest stumbling blocks. The fact that you mention pen hounds failing to face thick cover in swamps, leads me to believe you ran grays rather than reds or coyotes before you quit foxhunting. My original point was this -- it's a different game running grays than reds. Reds are different than running coyotes. Running in thick cover requires different qualities than open terrain.Mountains require something else again. You have coyote hunters in Missouri, red fox hunters in Kentucky and gray fox hunters in South Carolina. Different approaches and hounds are called for BUT we all rally under the umbrella of FOXHUNTERS. We subscribe to magaizines for FOXHUNTERS, even though they may be primarily for field trialers. We're kind of like a baseball team -- the requirements for a good catcher are different than for a good shortstop which are different from a good pitcher, BUT they're all baseball players (well, except maybe for pitchers  )In the same manner, in spite of our preferences of what, where and how our hounds pursue the chosen game -- we are all foxhunters. Running inside doesn't disqualify me from that category. Running outside does not grant you admission. Yes, in the best and most inclusive sense of the word -- it is foxhunting. To suggest anything else is a ridiculous argument. |
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Kyle Stotesberry
Oct 8th, 2008 - 11:56 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Emerson... how can running yotes in a pen be misconstrued as fox hunting? |
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Kyle Stotesberry
Oct 8th, 2008 - 11:58 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Thats like calling coon hunting bear hunting and bear hunting coon hunting simply because you use the same breed of hound. But, they are in fact two very different types of hunting. |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 8th, 2008 - 1:43 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Kyle, How could you say a game played in the Astrodome isn't baseball? |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 8th, 2008 - 1:48 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Except for the different characteristics inherent in the target species and the way coonhounds have been channelled to respond to those differences, just what IS the difference, Kyle? |
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Kyle Stotesberry
Oct 8th, 2008 - 1:57 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Come on down in November. I'll see if I can get you close to a big one on the ground... and when he starts to wade through about 20 head of plotts and treeing walkers to get to you...You'll understand the difference. They ain't nothing like it...You'll loose interest in them coons. Kyle Stotesberry 252-809-9124 |
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Kyle Stotesberry
Oct 8th, 2008 - 2:24 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
"Except for the different characteristics inherent in the target species and the way coonhounds have been channelled to respond to those differences, just what IS the difference, Kyle?" Please explain... "the way coonhounds have been channelled to respond to those differences" |
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Tom Smith
Oct 8th, 2008 - 3:11 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Must be Telekinesis. Like on star trek. Beam me up Eric. |
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Tom Smith
Oct 8th, 2008 - 3:14 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
That kinda sounds like one of MARC's training methods. So it must be right on target. Or maybe a little left of center. |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 8th, 2008 - 3:46 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Kyle, I foxhunt with a friend who's best hunting buddy over the years, is a man who keeps about 35 bear hounds and is pretty serious about it. Don't really have to go quite as far as your neighbourhood to see a big one on the ground. In fact we've seen them occasionally walking to the neighbours. Many coon hunters and bear hunters both run Plotts, but the hounds have been channelled over the years to display the different qualities each game requires. Some coon Plotts are very big and are aggressive fighters. Any of the bear hounds of that breed that I've seen are smaller, quicker and use an in-and-out style of fighting for obvious reasons. Bear hounds are going to need more foot speed because the races cover more ground etc. I prefer a fpxhound whose been bred to run coyotes successfully. However, I'm sure lots of gray fox hunters want something a lot different than what goes into a good coyote hound. The whole foxhound world doesn't agree with me, or you, on these matters and that's undoubtedly a good thing.
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Kyle Stotesberry
Oct 8th, 2008 - 3:51 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
What do y'all consider big in that neck of the woods?? |
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Bubba Casper
Oct 8th, 2008 - 4:24 PM |
Kyle.
A buddy of mine just got back from Maine. Up there close to the border. 400 is a whopper! |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 8th, 2008 - 4:36 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Kyle, I'll have to check with someone who knows on weights. I'd just be guessing. Funny, I was talking to another foxhunter the other day about the bear in Poole's. One of the drifts of our conversation was that there were plenty of bear in Virgina and the Carolinas and he said that many of them were bigger because they don't hibernate or at least not as long as they do here. Ours lose a lot of body weight over the winter hibernation. We've had a number of bear hunters from the Carolinas and Georgia come up here to hunt in our local area. There are more bear than ever, since the Ministry caved and outlawed the spring bear hunt a few years ago. Years ago, we were running red fox outside one spring night. A group of bear hunters were staying across Moira Lake and heard the hounds. They met a couple of the guys on the road next morning and invited them to tag along. They came away with a new respect for the moxie it takes from dogs and men to bear hunt effectively. Black bears are a remarkable animal. You see droppings and stones moved in the fields, but not often you see one, which works for me. They are sharp.
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dunker keech
Oct 8th, 2008 - 9:13 PM |
Re: Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Eric your a dumb ass.......end of story 252-945-9035 |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 8th, 2008 - 9:41 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Dunker, I don't know how many times I've said exactly the same thing. We do agree on something. Kyle, Talked to my foxhunting buddy's nephew. He says 400 is a big bear up here and five is pretty close to tops. His uncle was back north last week. They had a number of chases, but most of them were small bear. The hounds just couldn't get them bayed up and it's big country to get in front of them. They had one big one that worked over the hounds pretty good. They couldn't hold him til they could get to them. |
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Jason
Oct 8th, 2008 - 10:17 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
When we have enough rain I run on the outside mostly coyotes some red fox and a few grey fox and most of the time my dogs can run something when they get after it and when they get after a coyote its like trying to stay on a buck deer they up and leave when the pressure gets on them and go to the river swamp and circle a little bit and then try and make it back across the open pines back to where they came In the fox pen i have seen running the same group of dogs run for 4 hours and cross the road never making a loss running different coyotes the reason i know this is some are bob tailed and some of them are not and that is why game in the pen is not as easy to catch because they arent being ran most of the time the whole time you are having a race |
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Glenn Willoughby (Poon)
Oct 8th, 2008 - 10:57 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
You guys just don't have a clue. |
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Jay Dixon
Oct 8th, 2008 - 11:02 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Glenn what makes you think that 
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STEVE MCSWAIN/BIRCH CREEK KENNELS
Oct 8th, 2008 - 11:26 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Jay Dixon what do you think about all of this? |
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Jay Dixon
Oct 8th, 2008 - 11:28 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Running in a pen is not foxhunting if you are asking my 2 cents worth. |
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STEVE MCSWAIN/BIRCH CREEK KENNELS
Oct 8th, 2008 - 11:32 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
I AGREE THE PEN HUNTING JUST MAKES RUNNING DOGS AND NOT SO MUCH HUNTING DOGS. NOW DON'T GET ME WRONG I HAVE SEEN SOME GOOD DOGS INSIDE OF THE PEN. BUT THE OUTSIDE BROKE FOX DOG IS AT A DIFFERENT LEVEL, WOULDN'T YOU AGREE JAY? |
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Chris Barber
Oct 9th, 2008 - 7:14 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
I carried my 5yr. old son to a field trial this past Jan.. When we arrived at the gate my son asked are we going hunting daddy? I told him we were going in the fox pen to try and win us a trophy. He looked at me and said ,"THIS AIN'T HUNTING DADDY!" For those of you that can't figure it out for more information on "HUNTING" I'll be glad to let you talk to my firstgrader!(BARBER) |
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Tommy Richardson (TR KENNELS)
Oct 9th, 2008 - 10:00 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
I have enjoyed everyone's opinions and i am just an average guy, but for us that guys who are not professionals, (no harm ment) I hope I get the names right-Mr. Foster and Mr. Rwight?? have it righton on the above post. I run in the fox pen because on the outside i will have to go by 50 plus deer to find 1 fox. I'll never get to the fox. just my opinion. |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 9th, 2008 - 10:01 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Chris, The young man sounds like he has a real good head on his shoulders. He knew right away that you were going trialing, not hunting. Some would-be geneticists claim that up to 75 per cent of an offspring's inherited characteristics come from the mama's side. I've always thought that was a bit high, but it's an interesting theory. Hope you tailed him a trophy. He sounds like he's gonna make a real foxhunter some day in whatever avenue he chooses and that is still open to him. Would love to talk with him some time. Common sense is inter-generational. |
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David Marlowe/Rich Fork Kennels
Oct 9th, 2008 - 10:08 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
eric hows my buddy frank...he did not have a good experience in va ....thanks again for all the info on my trip..see you soon |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 9th, 2008 - 11:03 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
David, I talked with Frank last night. He's back in those southern NY state mountains feeding a cold, licking his wounds and planning his next campaign. Home field is a big advantage. It was, even when we ran outside. That's the reason I was impressed with you guys putting a couple in the top-ten at NY. Frank wins away, as well as at home, but it's always a bit easier on home ground. |
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Mike
Oct 9th, 2008 - 1:19 PM |
Re: TR KENNELS
Tommy R., very well said! A man giving an honest opinion of his hounds like you did is rare on here. |
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Ashley
Oct 9th, 2008 - 3:00 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
I just started Fox HUNTING with my b/f about a year ago and we hunt inside a pen and in my opinion it is hunting because dont they get scored on hunting? and on a S&D they get scored for running.. ..am i right ? we also hunt our dogs on the outside , we started pups on the outside instead of inthe pen its gets them going, And if ur on the outside running just for FOX u gotta have one hell of a hound that wont get distracted by deer n whateverelse , but its w/e i just wanted to place my opinion.. Ashley |
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Kyle Stotesberry
Oct 9th, 2008 - 3:03 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
If your dog gets distracted by deer when you run out side then you got deer dogs....You don't have fox dogs. |
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Ashley
Oct 9th, 2008 - 3:07 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
not true Rowdy and Fancy dogs my b/f had b4 ran the fire outta some deer and then u put em in the pen they won some HGA hunts at Pooles and other places so i dont think that is the case...just sayin Ashley |
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Kyle Stotesberry
Oct 9th, 2008 - 3:10 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Just b/c they place in a HGA hunt at Pooles does not mean they are fox dogs. Y'all have glorified deer dogs....no more no less. I've seen a FEW real fox dogs operate and I would bet my pay check you ain't got one. |
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Hank Cranford
Oct 9th, 2008 - 3:14 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
We 'hunted' outside last weekend. And the hamburger and cube steak will probably be ready tomorrow. Now this weekend , we're gonna 'run' in a pen - to see what's fastest. We don't go to the pen to 'hunt'. Some might, we don't. We go to 'run' . Just another opinion. |
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Ashley
Oct 9th, 2008 - 3:18 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Whoa Now aint no need to say all that , thats ur opinion , im just a girl i dont kno much about it but im sure we have had some good dogs if not the money in my b/fs pocket must be foolin me cause ppl have bought pups and dogs from him so its w/e and u need to have some respect sir.... Ashley |
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Ashley
Oct 9th, 2008 - 3:20 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
yea either way i just like to hear a good chase and maybe hopefully go home witha trophy ... thats all :) Ash |
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Glenn Willoughby (poon)
Oct 9th, 2008 - 5:08 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
See my earlier post. |
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Brad Cowan
Oct 9th, 2008 - 5:42 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
There is so much to say but why bother?! |
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Chris Barber
Oct 9th, 2008 - 5:57 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
My grandaddy told a man one time that he did'nt have enough sense to get out of a shower of s...! No need to use a shower of rain this time either!(BARBER) |
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Jay Dixon
Oct 9th, 2008 - 9:50 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
    Not going to waste my time, she already knows everything, that why she has two mouths and one ear right.
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Jack Allen Jr.
Oct 9th, 2008 - 10:01 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Where I hunt we go through the deer to get to that 1 fox. That's what makes them fox dogs, not just hounds. Nothing wrong with it, but there not fox dogs if there running deer. |
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Jean Barcroft
Oct 9th, 2008 - 10:21 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Jay Dixon I just love all the icons you put after your message, they are just too cute a good laugh for me at the end of a hectic day. Thanks |
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Eric Emerson
Oct 10th, 2008 - 4:28 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Hank, If hunting always results in cube steak or a fur coat, what about the days we go out and DON'T tail a fox or catch a mature buck? If you go out and have a great race and the game goes in or up or just flat out beats your hounds, have you been 'hunting' that day, or just marking time? If you need a fox tail to say you've been hunting, isn't that kind of like needing a trophy to say you've been to a good field trial? Sometimes the journey, not the destination, is the real point of it all. You go hunting to hunt, but to a pen to 'run'? Doesn't any foxhunter who goes 'hunting' expect to 'run'? If I go hunting and don't run something, I need to get better hounds or find a better hunting area, maybe a pen. I judge the quality of my hunt, by the running I can hear and see. If you're not running, inside or outside, you're not really foxhunting. I used to deer hunt, before I began foxhunting. Started as soon as I could get my license. You know, even back then, it wasn't the venison stew that drew me, it was the sound of those long-legged mutts driving one towards me down a hardwood ridge. I know we're basically bandying words about here, kind of like that shower of crap Chris' grandaddy talked about and none of us is smart enough to walk away from it. It just makes me laugh, when a relatively small group of gallery gods set out to designate who in this large, diverse fraternity of ours are foxhunters -- and who ain't. Keep em running.
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Chris Barber
Oct 10th, 2008 - 5:14 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Eric your idea of hunting is like calling yourself a fisherman and backing your boat through the drive thru window at CAPTAIN D'S. Baiting your hook with a 5 dollar bill and bumping the curbing calling it rough seas! A MASTER BAITER for sure!! (BARBER) |
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pat russell
Oct 10th, 2008 - 6:08 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
barbour you'r the best man. never hunted fox on the outside but have run my hounds on the in side. next time i get to NC, yall need to show me what it is all about.
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Eric Emerson
Oct 10th, 2008 - 6:44 AM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
Chris, You're still zoned in on a man who wants a fox tail or fish dinner instead of a good day fishing -- or foxhunting. You ARE the graffiti king of foxhunting, though. Grandad would be proud.
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JASON BROWN
Oct 10th, 2008 - 12:07 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
just because you watch tv dont make you movie star. and just because you go swimming dont make you micheal phelps. and just because you run in a pen full of foxs and get after a yote dont mean your a fox hunter. if it worked like that i would be rich because i passed by the bank today. |
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MICHAEL L. MITCHELL
Oct 10th, 2008 - 1:52 PM |
Re: Outside hunters vs Pen hunters
BARBER YOU MY DEAR OLE FRIEND ARE ONE OF A KIND IT IS A JOY TOO CALL YOU MY FRIEND SIR !!! I NEVER HAVE ANY DOUBT AS TOO WHAT IS ON YOUR MIND!! THAT IS PRICLESS !!! YOU HUUURR ME !!!!!!!! LATER, MICHAEL L. MITCHELL
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Jeff Brennan
Oct 10th, 2008 - 2:03 PM |