SPEEDDOGS

John Foster

Sep 6, 08 - 7:11 PM

Question???

To all - Mr. Hackett/ Mr. Claude Sutton/Mr. John Morse, you guys are much more educated on this subject than I am. However - this Deer Hound Training Season?? I have plenty of places to run my rabbit dogs, and can avoid ever going were someone is hunting, I will not hunt were someone is spring gobbler, blackpowder, bowhunting, ect...but this training season??? Does this mean that we can run our dogs during "training season"?? I hear people say they will only run their dogs on Sunday or at night. WHY?? Trust me, I support the whole hound hunting issue, for everyone's dogs. But what's next, if we only have a season that we can run our dogs in, they will continue to chop it in the future. What's next?? we can only run dogs June?? Not being hard headed, but this is why I am against a special training season.

Bill Schrader

Sep 6th, 2008 - 7:18 PM

Re: Question???

AMEN!!!!!! someone has finally asked the million dollar question. This is me and my friends biggest fear teling us when we can not run our dogs, wheatherit be fox/bear/deer/rabbit. I remember claude talking about this also a while back but can't remember it all.

W. Schrader
Richmond Va.

John Foster

Sep 6th, 2008 - 7:32 PM

Re: Question???

thanks Bill - I really should have written my question better. Why does Mr. Hackett want a special deer hound training season, I have talked to Mr. Hackett several times via e-mail, and I thank him for helping us in the dog world the way that he has and continues to do. But what good can come out of a special training season? I am NOT against Mr. Hackett, I just don't understand??? Hopefully, someone can help me understand the reason behind it. But as it stands, I don't.

Matt Hurst

Sep 6th, 2008 - 7:37 PM

Re: Question???

good question john, i do not like it myself, enough is enough. but i'm sure people will come on here and say that we have to have it. most likely people that don not have but 1 or 2 places to hunt and don not run there dogs much.

Mike

Sep 6th, 2008 - 8:18 PM

Re: Question???

My question is this....If there is a deer hound training season. does that literally mean that there is a special training season for all hounds? I own 72 acres my self and am worried about a season that I can run my dogs. Which means there is a season that I can't run my dogs.

SPARKY D KENNELS

Sep 6th, 2008 - 9:08 PM

Re: Question???

THIS IS THE RESON WHY THEY WANT A DEER TRAINING SEASON FOR HOUNDS. BECAUSE MOST OF US DEER HUNTERS WITH HOUNDS HAVE NOT TURNED THEIR HOUNDS OUT SINCE THE LAST DAY OF DEER SEASON LAST YEAR AND NOW THEY WANT TO GET THEM IN SHAPE IN OCTOBER, WHICH IS BOW AND MUZZLELOADER SEASON. THEY SHOW NO RESPECT TO THE STILLHUNTERS WHEN THEY HAVE ALL SUMMER TO RUN THEM BUT ARE TOO LAZY. ALL OF US KNOW THAT 90% OF THEM DO THIS, AND WITHOUT A SPECIAL TRAINING SEASON THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO IT. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT FOXHUNTERS HERE AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT IM SAYING IS TRUE.

SPARKY D KENNELS

Sep 6th, 2008 - 9:17 PM

Re: Question???

ALSO, I OWN DEER HOUNDS. I KNOW A LOT OF CLUBS THAT LEASE HOUNDS AND RUN THEM THAT TIME OF YEAR. THEY DON HAVE NO BUSINESS HAVING DEER HOUNDS. THEY DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT THE HOUNDS UNTIL IT STARTS TO COOL OFF IN LATE SEPTEMBER. MR. FOSTER, I HAVE READ A LOT OF YOUR POSTS AND KNOW THAT YOU ARE A RABBIT BEAGLE HOUNDSMAN THAT KEEPS HIS DOGS IN SHAPE YEAR ROUND AS I DO, AND I CAN UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. THIS NEEDS TO BE TALKED ABOUT AND I AGREE WITH YOUR POINT, I AM AGAIST A TRAINING SEASON, BUT THIS IS THE REASON WHY THEY WANT IT.

SPARKY B KENNELS

Sep 6th, 2008 - 9:25 PM

Re: Question???

SORRY FOR MY BAD TYPOS / SPARKY B KENNELS, KING WILLIAM COUNTY VA

John Foster

Sep 6th, 2008 - 9:43 PM

Re: Question???

Sparky B, you make some interesting points, I'm not against deer clubs or deer houndsmen. I just don't want the state to tell me when I can and can't run my beagles, I am hunting a lot of land in different locations, I'm not bothering or seeing anyone. Thanks for the reply.

Claude S. Sutton, Jr.

Sep 6th, 2008 - 10:01 PM

Re: Question???

I hope that everyone here remembers that although I sympathize with the deer hunter that wants a training season, I am absolutely against any plan that takes hunting days away from foxhunting, rabbit hunting or anyone else.

I have said over and over that getting more days to run deer hounds should stand on its own two feet. If it makes sense, it can be sold on its own merits.

I have also said several times that very very few hounds can catch a deer, so there is no reason they should not run anytime they want to run. It should be the same as fox or rabbit hounds.

And Mr. Foster is right. Set a training season for deer hounds and next thing you know there will be training seasons for fox and rabbit hounds and then it will get shorter and shorter and with more restrictions until we might be running only one month out of the year.

Who knows where it will go when you are dealing with the government.

CSSJR

Dwight Phillips

Sep 6th, 2008 - 10:05 PM

Re: Question???

I too have hounds but can honestly say nothing will burn you up quicker than having a big gobbler working in and a pack of dogs run thru your setup. (This has happened to me before.) There was a post about being respectful the other day and that is what it is about. There may be a person that only hunts turkeys or still hunts and has nothing against us dog men but let his hunt get busted up a few times and then he will be the one to change his mind. I don't agree with a special training season and trust me if time allowed (2 kids and both play multiple sports) I would run more often, but Sundays and nights are about the only time I could run. We need to just be sure we aren't messing up someone else's hunting time when we run our dogs.

Brain White

Sep 6th, 2008 - 10:36 PM

Re: Question???

So I'm kind of confused on what yall stance is. Are yall saying that deer hounds should only be run during deer season and thats it? Or are yall saying they should be allowed to run year round? I would like to see something other than the 6 or so weeks you get during deer season cause it makes it hard to break puppies when you only have 6weeks a year to do it in. Lets say they were 4months old last season too young to start and this season they will be 16months getting a little old to break then. I'm just not clear on your opinions some clarification might help thanks...

Claude S. Sutton, Jr.

Sep 6th, 2008 - 10:38 PM

Re: Question???

You are right.

And when I run my dogs, there shouldn't be any cars on the road that might hit them.

Those drivers should respect ME.

Dove hunters shouldnt shoot so many times. It scares my hounds.

Deer hunters shouldn't run their hounds. It makes the foxes harder to find nd it might mess up my hunt.

John Foster

Sep 6th, 2008 - 11:29 PM

Re: Question???

Mr. White, we are saying you should be able to run your dogs anytime you want too, just be respectful to other hunters when possible, if they get a training season, you will NOT be able to do that.....Mr. Sutton, thanks for coming on here, I always enjoy listening to your opinion.

John Foster

Ken Sarvis/Swamp Chase Kennels

Sep 7th, 2008 - 12:43 AM

Re: Question???

I AGREE WITH YOU MR. SUTTON, WE NEED TO BE RESPECTFUL TO OTHERS, BUT IF WE ALLOW REGULATIONS TO CUT DAYS WE CAN RUN GAME, BE IT DEER,FOX,RABBIT. THEN THE DOOR IS OPEN TO TAKE IT AWAY COMPLETELY. WHAT GIVES THE RIGHT FOR SOMEONE TO INFRINGE ON MY RIGHTS AS A DOG HUNTER.I HAVE OFTEN SAID THAT THEY KNOW THEY CAN'T TAKE DOG HUNTING AWAY ALL AT ONCE, BECAUSE OF THE UP ROAR THAT THIS WOULD CAUSE. SO WHAT IS THE NEXT COURSE OF ACTION? CHIP AWAY LITTLE BY LITTLE. THEY PASS ONE REGULATION THIS YEAR THEN REST ASSURED THERE
WILL BE ANOTHER ONE THE NEXT. CHIP,CHIP,CHIP. WE BETTER WISE UP AND WAKE UP!!!!

Randy(REV)Eddy

Sep 7th, 2008 - 8:47 AM

Re: Question???

Here's what has happened in NEW YORK
You can run dogs July 1st till April 15th

Fox season Red and Gray Oct 25 - Feb 15th
Coyote Oct 1st- March 29th
here's a link to other dates and rules

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/hunting.html

Looks like change is headed your way
Too much Goverment?

I run hounds outside untill Gun deer seasons begians
November 15th
then don't run them agian untill its over December 7th
they ( Econ Officers) shoot dogs that run Deer here and give owners a ticket and fines

Chris Barber

Sep 7th, 2008 - 10:07 AM

Re: Question???

One more reason to get your dogs to handle! Hunt and run'um were you have permission and if they are headed were you can't break them off,tell'um to get in the truck and try another spot.And when it's time to go home your dogs will be in the truck instead of in someones trash can or chasing their house cat. May not totally solve our problems but it d... sure will help! JUST MY OPINION!(BARBER)

Mike Cobb-Collosse Rd. Kennels

Sep 7th, 2008 - 10:17 AM

Re: Question???

Currently there is no LEGAL deer hound training season. Deer hunters have been getting by in the past by running their hounds under the disguise of fox hunting. VDGIF has a hard time (understandably so) determining wheather someones hounds are running a fox or a deer. One could always say "I turned out on a fox and they got off on a deer". So it makes it real hard to get a conviction, therefore they don't pursue the issue very often, thus making it an issue. This whole study got started over a year ago and up until fairly recently I personally never knew we might be "barganing" for a LEGAL deer hound training season. In my opinion we have always get by in the past, weather you run your deerhounds in a fox pen (mine will run fox and deer but they ain't foxhounds they are deerhounds)or you decide to run your deer hounds illegally, hope to not get caught but by doing so we add to the problem of disturbing a still hunter if it is done at that time of the year. I think running outside prior to Aug.1 is wrong. Give the yearlings a chance to get their legs under them good. Another point is taking the chance of potentially damaging a real trophy buck's horns, making him "just another deer". Lastly, even though where I hunt we very rarely experience any complaints from neighboring landowners, but I think, our adjoining land owners deserve a break, just as the game deserves a break so I choose to run in a foxpen. I will not ask a fox hunter, rabbit hunter, or any other hound hunter that is fortunate enough to already have a LEGAL training season to give up even 1 day of their season. I believe if the State wants US to have a legal training season, it should be sold on its own merit and not take from anyone else. We have managed this long, why rock the boat and cause un wanted tension between us as hunters? That may be part of their stratagey to start with. Just my opinion...

James Daughtrey (BIG ORDEAL KENNEL)

Sep 7th, 2008 - 12:20 PM

Re: Question???

Its been illegal to run deerhouds on the off season for years.I have been this long with no problem.If we could find a happy medium to make everyone happy that would be great but I think thats impossible.Just use good sense and repect other hunters when EXERCISING your hounds.

Mike Cobb-Collosse Rd. Kennels

Sep 7th, 2008 - 5:15 PM

Re: Re: Question???

I don't know this for a fact but it was recently told to me that Southampton Co. has a County ordinance that makes it illegal for someone to keep a dog penned up for over 30 days without allowing them out to excercise.

Danny Porter/ Sandy Ridge Kennels

Sep 8th, 2008 - 6:47 AM

Re: Question???

Mike,
That might be but I haven't met anyone in Southampton that keeps their dogs in the pen for much more than a week. All the boys out that way are serious bout the hounds they raise.We have been runnin on the same plots of land for years and have always just been respectfull to each other with no problems. Again I have both deer hounds and grey fox dogs. This area is just proof that there is no need for a trianing season if we all just use a little consideration and respect.

Jim Hackett

Sep 8th, 2008 - 8:04 AM

Re: Question???

Mike- Again, you are right on most everything you said.
Here's the deal, of all the info received by the SAC, running hounds (in general) in the guise of fox hounds was one of the top four problems. This complaint came more from still hunters than anyone else. It was quickly identified that these complaints were because of intrusion to bow, blackpowder and spring gobbler season. It is no secret to anyone that most deer hound owners run their hounds at these times with no RESPECT to still hunters. Rabbit and coon hounds don't even figure into this equation. Somehow, in the past, there was a legal training season established for rabbit, coon and bear hounds but, the deer hounds were not included. Of 106,000 hound hunters in Va. 57,000 are deer hound hunters. Terrible oversight on somebodies part. I agree that though we are envious, it is not right to take from one to give to another. But, ask yourself this. How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot? If I could run my hounds and you could not run yours?Regardless, as the law is presently written, it is unlawful for deer hound owners to run there hounds outside of the legal season. THIS IS WRONG. There must be a legal training season provide. (CLAUDE-Don't say it again,I am tired of hearing it) I will not propose anything that will take away from another. But, I am going to propose a deer hound training season in the next SAC meeting. I am not very hopeful of the outcome. Mike was right, deer hounds should not be run on the outside during the summer. In my opinion, April 1st to Aug 1st, for the very reason he said. Fawns and big bucks in velvet. (You can damage the horns) Deer hound owners are tired of having to live a lie in order to train their hounds when everyone else can do as they please. Don't give that fox pen argument, there are not enough fox pens to support all the hounds in Virginia and I have hunted with hounds from fox pens several times. No thanks, I don't want my beagles hunting like that and I don't want them start leaning towards fox's over deer. My proposal will be
Aug 1 to Oct 31. During the month of October, hounds can be run from dark on Saturday afternoon until Monday at sunrise. Than all hours of dark from Monday night to Friday night. (This will provide the time for solitude, for the bow hunters) In counties that have black powder hunting. It will be closed for the first two weeks of November. After the close of the general firearms season, there will be an open training season from Jan. until March 31. Closed April 1st to July 31.
I am open to listen to everyones input. If you have a better suggestion, than by all means, share it. If this could be passed, than it would just about totally eliminate one of the top four complaints. Yes, deer hound owners could still run their hounds in the guise of fox hounds, But now, they have a legal season and once everyone realizes that it was establish to get the hounds out of the woods during the still hunting periods, I believe that we will all see a great improvement.

Burwells Bay Kennels (Miles Mauger)

Sep 8th, 2008 - 11:35 AM

Re: Question???

Jim, I think your proposal is an excellent idea!!! However as an avid bowhunter as well as a dog owner think the proposal should not include the month of October...Some guys will not be able to catch all of the dogs up by daylight the next morning.... remember respect!!!

Jim Hackett

Sep 8th, 2008 - 11:54 AM

Re: Question???

Miles- This won't sit well with everyone but we must all work together. My proposal leaves the daylight hours to the bow hunters, Sure, once in a while there will be a hound left out but, it won't be often. Even if it is out, by morning they would be spent and more than likely looking for home or sleeping. What few times they are left out, how many of those are going to affect a bow hunter? Rarely. October is the best month for running hounds. The nights get cooler and you may even get a Sunday afternoon that is good. I doubt that you will find a deer hound hunter that would agree to give up October totally. If that is the option, I would elect to do nothing and let the process work as it is. Than the bowhunters are no better off than they were. I heard a good statement made last week, why would bow hunters rights take presidence over hound hunting rights? Both people want to use the woods at the same time. To exercise respect, it needs to be done on both sides. For those that argue that hounds mess up the normal patterns of deer. Don't go there, it has been proven that this is nothing but a fallacy. If bow hunters would step up and support this, it would be much easier to get it passed in the SAC meeting.

John Field

Sep 8th, 2008 - 12:26 PM

Re: Question???

I am afraid that if there is a special training season for deer hounds, they WILL change fox and coon and rabbit training seasons to the amendment. I am all for the training season, but they most likely will not leave the others alone in the process. My opinion only.

Jim Hackett

Sep 8th, 2008 - 1:11 PM

Re: Question???

John- reasonable concern. This was my concern as well from the start. But after thinking about it. I have become more comfortable with my idea. At first, I was going to propose that only fox season be affected with my suggestion. Raccoon and Rabbit never bother anyone. Of course, feedback from several directions expressed the concern with involving fox season. To do so would take legislative action. (That wouldn't happen) The MFHA is credited with establishing a fox season and the legislators would not want to get into that battle with them, not to mention the pressure they would get from the VHDA. So if I included the fox season in any way, it would be destine for failure from the start. Now, my proposal would clearly state that it is for deer hounds only. It is to establish a legal training season so deer hound hunters can stop cheating the law. Every other discipline has their training season. The Tech. Committee has already acknowledged that they are in agreement with a training season. The times of when? Is where we are not in sync. Our first attempt was vague and not specific, that is why it did not acquire the 2/3 majority. This time I will be exactly specific. If they were to try to group other disciplines into the proposal, it won't pass SAC again. But remember, regardless of what we propose or don't propose, The Tech Committee can alter the outcome. So, if we don't propose something, that leaves them the open ground to do anything they want. I don't think you want that either.

Chad Bridgers (Rowdy Boys Kennel)

Sep 8th, 2008 - 1:23 PM

Re: Question???

what wrong with running them at night
there should be no one still hunting or turkey hunting at night

Burwells Bay Kennels (Miles Mauger)

Sep 8th, 2008 - 1:36 PM

Re: Question???

Jim I was only stating an opinion and by no means think the any hunting method has precidence over another if this proposal goes through and i hope it does it would be a victory for the hound hunters!!!!

Jim Hackett

Sep 8th, 2008 - 2:44 PM

Re: Question???

Yes it will be a victory for deer hound hunters but, I fear that the landowners will see this from an angle that is not intended. They will think we are trying to get something over on them when my intention is, to not only provide a legal means to practice our sport but, to instill some kind of guidance that will serve in the best interest of all of those affected. This should help remove us from sight for the most part.

Don Odom

Sep 8th, 2008 - 3:13 PM

Re: Question???

terrible idea...I am glad I dont live or hunt in Virginia. Mr. Hackett I would talk to a bunch of your fellow houndsman before I made any suggestions. I doubt you have much support on this. In NC you can run them whenever you want to. Most of us try to be thoughtful and during turkey or bow season we run on Sunday mornings. It aint that hard

Jim Hackett

Sep 8th, 2008 - 3:38 PM

Re: Question???

Don- great situation for you- but presently we are breaking the law if we train deer hounds. I find it hard to believe I would be wrong to request a legal means to practice my sport. If it doesn't get approved, than I would guess everyone will do what they always did. Why not try?

Claude S. Sutton, Jr.

Sep 8th, 2008 - 7:30 PM

Re: Question???

Jim:

I don't know why that remark was directed at me.

I have said all along that I don't care how long the deer hound training season is so long as it does not affect the foxhunting season.

So now you are proposing the same thing I suggested and then telling me to keep quiet?

I am mystified.

My own opinion is that one should be allowed to run deer hounds 12 month of the year and shoot them for six months.

CSSJR

JOHN MORSE

Sep 8th, 2008 - 7:35 PM

Re: Question???

EVERYBODY,
I HAVE HESITATED TO COMMENT ON THIS DUE TO MY STILL UNRESOLVED FEELINGS ABOUT IT.
MY UNDERLYING CONCERN IS THAT SUCH A TRAINING SEASON NOT REDUCE OR RESTRICT FOLKS WHO ARE ALREADY RUNNING DOGS ON OTHER SPECIES,SUCH AS FOX AND RABBIT HUNTERS. I COMMENTED ALONG THOSE LINES AT THE MEETING IN SUFFOLK ON THURSDAY. I DO FEEL HOWEVER,THAT JIMS PROPOSAL IS VERY PRACTICAL.
THIS IS ONE OF THOSE DEALS WHERE THE DETAILS OF HOW IT WILL BE STRUCTURED WILL PROVE TO BE THE OVERRIDING
CONCERN.
JMMJR,VHDA

pat russell

Sep 8th, 2008 - 7:45 PM

Re: Question???

i would love to be able to run my deer hounds that often. down here in fl we can train our deer hounds 2 weeks before dog/deer season and never after the last day of that season. 2 weeks is just the time it take to run the pads off them. season only 12 week long and by the time they are in shape you can not run them any more. some do run them on fox/yotes in till the beginning of spring gobbler but after that do not get caught with a hound in the big woods.sounds like a great plan to someone that cannot run his hound as often as he would like to.

Chris Barber

Sep 8th, 2008 - 9:22 PM

Re: Question???

GET YOUR DOGS TO HANDLE AND IT WILL HELP WITH THIS PROBLEM ,HOWEVER IN SOME PLACES ITS PROBABLY TOO LATE!BOTTOM LINE IS IT IS MAINLY DOGS THAT ARE LEFT UNATTENDED TO OR JUST GOT OUT OF TRACKING RANGE! GETT'UM HUNTING FOR YOU INSTEAD OF YOU HUNTING FOR THEM! LEARN HOW TO KEEP UP WITH,HUNT,AND HANDLE YOUR DOGS OR DON'T HAVE ANY AT ALL! JUST TURNING THEM OUT AT NIGHT AIN'T THE ANSWER!STILL MY OPINION!(BARBER)

Claude S. Sutton, Jr.

Sep 8th, 2008 - 9:48 PM

Re: Question???

Chris is right on.

However, there is one thing that is not discussed enough.

Many of these people that complain don't know a hound from a poochie porch dog.

About any breed will run a deer. Many of the people who complain don't know that.

I doubt if most bow hunters know the difference.

As I told in another story, I once was called to a guys house about 9:30 at night to get my hound.

It was a Dalmatian!

He had no idea.

So a lot of these complaints are not our hounds.

There is also the problem of people that will steal a hound and leave him in the woods when it is time to go home.

This is not as likely as the poochie running deer.

CSSJR

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